Any thoughts on this downward rotation/rebound study?

Hazelandlucy

Active member
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv22/22ESV-000406.pdf

I hope it's ok to post this sort of thing. I find these reports so interesting.

I seriously am thinking about taking the center console out for the next year while I have a rear facer in the center. In the new Odyssey it extends pretty far back with the two cupholders and when I had the middle seat slid forward, it was only about 3 inches away. Gives me a good tether spot as well. The article says to avoid the center if a console is there - but that is with an infant seat and seat belt. Do you think with a convertible and latch it's ok? I know I just said I want to take it out, but I also love a Starbucks on the way home from preschool drop off!
 
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jwilliams

New member
Completely ignoring your safety concerns ;), I know the 2012 Odyssey I'm currently driving has a cupholder that extends from underneath where the temperature/audio/display controls are. It's like a little drawer that pulls out.
 

Brigala

CPST Instructor
I wonder whether that study has something to do with the tendency of Canadian car seats to have really low rear-facing height limits...
 

TechnoGranola

Forum Ambassador
I wonder whether that study has something to do with the tendency of Canadian car seats to have really low rear-facing height limits...

Not sure about that (but it's a good thought!), but I'm pretty sure it is one of the main reasons we have our new rebound standard now.
 

Brigala

CPST Instructor
Some of this information was presented in a CEU class I attended once. Not this exact report, but some of the contributing information about head injuries and rear-facing and information about having the seat touch the front vehicle seats reducing the risk for head injury (but still don't do it, because of air bag sensors).

Nothing was mentioned then about the center console.

I'm now pondering my car seat options for the new squish. In one vehicle, I can really only put the infant seat in the center. In the other vehicle, I have captain's chairs and will be putting the seat outboard.

I wonder whether it would be smart to use my Onboard Air only in the vehicle with captain's chairs, and see if my Coccoro will fit well with Euro routing in the vehicle where baby needs to go in the center.

I could put my daughter FF in the center in her Radian but that is a very short term solution because she'll outgrow it soon. Eventually she's going to need to be in the Frontier and the center seat is too narrow for that. I can't put a car seat behind the passenger because then there's no access to the 3rd row and putting an adult in the center of the 2nd row isn't a great option either for comfort reasons. So really the two car seats need to go side by side and therefore one needs to be in the center.

I suppose my other choice would be to put my daughter in the center in the RSTV I'm getting next week, after she outgrows the Radian anyway. She's not ready yet to be in something she can unbuckle unless an adult is riding next to her. Maybe 6 months from now that will be different.

Hmmmmmmm.
 

Hazelandlucy

Active member
Some of this information was presented in a CEU class I attended once. Not this exact report, but some of the contributing information about head injuries and rear-facing and information about having the seat touch the front vehicle seats reducing the risk for head injury (but still don't do it, because of air bag sensors).

Nothing was mentioned then about the center console.

I'm now pondering my car seat options for the new squish. In one vehicle, I can really only put the infant seat in the center. In the other vehicle, I have captain's chairs and will be putting the seat outboard.

I wonder whether it would be smart to use my Onboard Air only in the vehicle with captain's chairs, and see if my Coccoro will fit well with Euro routing in the vehicle where baby needs to go in the center.

I could put my daughter FF in the center in her Radian but that is a very short term solution because she'll outgrow it soon. Eventually she's going to need to be in the Frontier and the center seat is too narrow for that. I can't put a car seat behind the passenger because then there's no access to the 3rd row and putting an adult in the center of the 2nd row isn't a great option either for comfort reasons. So really the two car seats need to go side by side and therefore one needs to be in the center.

I suppose my other choice would be to put my daughter in the center in the RSTV I'm getting next week, after she outgrows the Radian anyway. She's not ready yet to be in something she can unbuckle unless an adult is riding next to her. Maybe 6 months from now that will be different.

Hmmmmmmm.

I linked another study earlier (will try to find) that was about a real life incident of an infant dying by hitting the console. That what got me scared about this whole downward rotation and wanting to buy a European seat with rigid latch and a load leg!

In the study LISmama linked it shows a Britax in an Odyssey having elevated head acceleration. Right now I have a Britax in that same car/seat position. I am still confused as to whether to leave 1/4 inch or 2 feet clearance!

Now I think I might actually bring one over. The Max Fix 2 is 27 lbs. Does that mean I could use the rigid latch until my kids were 38 lbs? Is it as simple as 65 -27 = max weight?

Is checking the seat in it's own box ok for the plane? Should I gate check or put it with my luggage?

I don't know that I will be brave enough do this, but I still need one more seat. I have a Peg on the way, but now i wondering whether it's worth taking out the console for a tether spot (that's been totally untested as to whether it would even hold). The whole airbag/hard to find spot on seat in my Odyssey is making me think I at least should have gotten a seat with a rebound bar instead if i don't switch to the Max Fix.
Why did I start reading more???
 
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Hazelandlucy

Active member
Completely ignoring your safety concerns ;), I know the 2012 Odyssey I'm currently driving has a cupholder that extends from underneath where the temperature/audio/display controls are. It's like a little drawer that pulls out.

That's great to know! Will check it out in my car this morning.
 

Hazelandlucy

Active member
Between 1/4” and 2 feet clearance, if that is really a choice, 2 feet.


That's much better for me because I am really short and in that minivan there is tons of clearance between my seat and the carseat.

The Foonf is behind the passenger. I guess I should move that way up when not in use?

There is no issue with neck loading from maximum rotation and no seat contact? Worse to have the head impact from the hitting the seat? What about hitting the seat at 70 degrees vs 55 degree (so I guess 2 inches vs 10 inches). I guess I am still trying to figure out whether no contact (like if i take console out), some contact later on in the rotation (move seats way up) or immediate contact is best.

The center console scares me to death in the Odyssey as it extends so far back. If I stick with the Peg, do you think tethering to the floor where the console used to be is safe? It will hold a 35/40 lb kid?

As far as my Britax in there now, does the fact that the new Britax CT allows rear facing past the shell imply that the head wings have more eps foam or protection than the G3?

I guess what scares me is that we have so little rear world data for rear facing kids past 30 lbs in the US. The 40+ lb seats are pretty new and I still think most people turn at 2 or before. The countries that do have experience with older RF'ers have load legs, rebound bars, rigid latch, etc. When a seat like the Foonf gets tested, is it tested with a 50 lb dummy AND a front seat to impact? It might not rotate more than 70 degrees, but it's still going to hit the front seat ...will it hit harder with a big kid than an 18 month old? I think rear facing is obviously the safest, but I want to make sure I am doing it right with a 3 -4 yr old.
 
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Brigala

CPST Instructor
Between 1/4” and 2 feet clearance, if that is really a choice, 2 feet.

Am I reading this study backwards?

When I read it, it sounds like the problems were worse when there was significant clearance between the infant seat and the front seat.

Not talking about the center console, though.
 

finn

New member
I linked another study earlier (will try to find) that was about a real life incident of an infant dying by hitting the console. That what got me scared about this whole downward rotation and wanting to buy a European seat with rigid latch and a load leg! In the study LISmama linked it shows a Britax in an Odyssey having elevated head acceleration. Right now I have a Britax in that same car/seat position. I am still confused as to whether to leave 1/4 inch or 2 feet clearance! Now I think I might actually bring one over. The Max Fix 2 is 27 lbs. Does that mean I could use the rigid latch until my kids were 38 lbs? Is it as simple as 65 -27 = max weight? Is checking the seat in it's own box ok for the plane? Should I gate check or put it with my luggage? I don't know that I will be brave enough do this, but I still need one more seat. I have a Peg on the way, but now i wondering whether it's worth taking out the console for a tether spot (that's been totally untested as to whether it would even hold). The whole airbag/hard to find spot on seat in my Odyssey is making me think I at least should have gotten a seat with a rebound bar instead if i don't switch to the Max Fix. Why did I start reading more???

I thought the Max Fix only went to 18kg/40lbs rear facing? It's a European seat and afaik their isofix is only rated to 18kg/40lbs.
 

Hazelandlucy

Active member
I thought the Max Fix only went to 18kg/40lbs rear facing? It's a European seat and afaik their isofix is only rated to 18kg/40lbs.

That's fine with me....I would actually only use it until something like 37 or 38 lbs with our latch limits. Would buy it for the load leg/rigid latch/rebound bar combo. My almost 3 yr old is 30 lbs and only gained a couple between 2 and 3. I am happy to get to 4 and pass it down to my baby. It's really those heavier later years I worry about the most.

My issue is that the other isofix seats are heavier and i would not get enough use out of them before hitting the 65 lb limit.
 

Brigala

CPST Instructor
The perception that greater clearance between the infant/child seat and the front row seats offers better protection to a rear facing child was not supported by the findings in this study. While the available distance between the infant seat and front row seats was not measured prior to the test, not one of the 15 infant/child seats that were initially touching the seat back at installation was found to result in a head acceleration of 80g or greater.
It may be that the front seat acts to hold back the infant seat. This blocking effect prevents the seat from gaining the necessary speed to forcefully strike the seat back. It may also reduce exposure of the head by limiting the amount dummy occupant excursion towards the upper edge of the seat.

This is interesting.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
When touching is an option, touching. But when the choice is 1/4” or 2 feet, assuming those literal distances apply, if you won't be pre-crash touching more is probably better... Not based only on this study.
 

Hazelandlucy

Active member
When touching is an option, touching. But when the choice is 1/4” or 2 feet, assuming those literal distances apply, if you won't be pre-crash touching more is probably better... Not based only on this study.

Ok 2 feet was wrong. More like 10 inchs, lol. Still better than being close as possible without touching? What about if I take the console out...no worry about neck loading or whatever it's called when the seat goes flat and nothing stops it?

Would the head injury numbers be even higher with a say a 40 lb kid and 38 lbs car seat? That just seems like so much force getting thrown back.

Does touching the passenger seat only turn off the passenger airbag? What if the airbag off light doesn't come on? I would feel better if I just had the slightest bit of contact to stop any sudden impact.

I think the study does make a good case for foam reinforced head wings within a foam shell.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
It doesn't just turn off the passenger airbag. It may affect the sensors. Which means if you never have anyone there it's fine to use touching there. If the sensors misread the data because something is pressing on the back they may deploy with too little or too much force, not deploy when they should, or deploy when they shouldn't any of which carry an increased risk to the passenger of injury or death. So, never having anyone ride there allows you to touch, yes, but it has to be NEVER, at least without removing the seat.

Remember that the seat is not allowed to rotate past 70 degrees when installed at the most recline allowed by the seat. It's not going to go flat, not really. It can dip deep, yes, but not past 70.
 

Hazelandlucy

Active member
This makes it sound like more clearance = more force.

"Larger infant seats slammed into the front seat backs harder. Researchers examined the effect of changing the clearance between the front seat back and the infant seat and found that with more clearance, there was more opportunity for the child to pick up speed, resulting in even higher HICs. With no clearance, as in most small cars, the seat is braced and had much better performance"

That was from this http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/time-examine-rear-facing-infant-seat-safety-improvements

Can I trust car seat makers that nothing bad is going to happen with a heavy seat and older kid?

"In lieu of standards, or industry initiative, Tylko says that the best advice for parents is not to place rear-facing infant seats in the center position and to use the LATCH system on either of the outboard seats"

If I take out my console and use latch in the center, should I feel comfortable? I don't know what to feel about the Foonf and a 3 yr old behind the passenger.

I really haven't felt nervous, more just finding it all interesting, until now. Are the elevated HIC's found when hitting the seat backs not at a dangerous level? Is it just seats without any EPS foam that are the problem?
 
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ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Any seat that passes the standard is safe. Really.

This is one small study. There are other studies showing other results. Also it is one marker you're concerned about. Remember there are others.

You shouldn't rely on the recommendations of one study alone to make decisions, but on the body of evidence.

It is quite possible that the difference in real life is fairly moot.

I totally trust manufaCturers on this. I have faith that our standard lets us keep kids very safe in survivable crashes. Not all are survivable. Just make a choice and do your best, and your kids will be very safe. There IS NOT a completely clear answer on this, other than whatever you choose will be very safe as long as you use the seat correctly.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I agree that we can't read too much into one study. Many factors could affect individual seat performance, including things like how upright the seat is, where the child's head is in relation to the top of the shell, the contours of the vehicle and seatbelt geometry, tightness of the harness (in real-life situations), not to mention the speed and type of crash.

There are easy, reasonable steps we, as parents, can take to keep our kids safe. Restraining them in the back seat in properly installed and fitted seats (rear-facing for as long as possible and/or practical) is a huge, huge, huge advantage. Other factors like rear tethers, load legs, clearance between the seat in front, EPS vs EPP foam, headwings, etc might or might not make a significant--or any--difference.

We do what is best and practical for our individual situations, and beyond that, it's best not to sweat it.
 

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