Support leg for rear facing convertibles

Hazelandlucy · Oct 23, 2014

Why don't we use them out here? I was just looking at the Britax seats in England (will be there shortly...slightly tempted!) and Max Fix has rigid latch and a load leg. The load leg seems to be on all the ERF seats. It must be helpful? What do they do and why don't heavy seats with high RF limits like the Foonf need one?

1mommy · Oct 23, 2014

Because our test vehicle for car seats doesn't have a floor to test the load leg with. A few infant seats have it but have to pass testing without it.

Hazelandlucy · Oct 23, 2014

1mommy said:
Because our test vehicle for car seats doesn't have a floor to test the load leg with. A few infant seats have it but have to pass testing without it.

Knowing this seat passes the Plus test and all European tests, would be a safe to assume its fine to use out here?

ketchupqueen · Oct 23, 2014

If by here you mean the US, it's not legal here.

There are circumstances under which one might make a decision to anyway but with the seats now on the market absent certain medical conditions it's not one I'd probably make. The situation here is far better than it was a few years ago.

Hazelandlucy · Oct 23, 2014

So no real benefit to rigid latch, Plus test and the load leg? I love my Foonf, but I do sometimes wonder about a 38 lb seat and a top of limits, 50 lb kid, rear facing in it. Seems like it would be helped by a load leg?

I keep hoping to find a seat that someone says "yes, that IS safer!" so I can feel like I have done my best and not second guess myself if I was in a terrible accident.

It's funny, I don't worry about car seats and safety until I need to buy one and then I start researching and watching crash tests and scare myself silly. I think if i just bought a couple of seats I would stop looking at this stuff and be fine!

ketchupqueen · Oct 23, 2014

They are doing different things to pass different standards. There isn't a way to compare head to head.

I wouldn't break the law just to get those features. (To keep a kid rf longer before we had the seats we do now, I did use an imported seat and don't regret that. But now? There would have been no need.)

Ultimately you need to decide. We can't tell you what is the safest seat in the world because that data doesn't exist. If it did, likely it would be a different answer depending on crash and child specifics. And you don't know what crash you will be in or get to choose that.

In the end ANY rear-facing seat is super, super protective- and any properly installed and used seat (even including a forward facing and tethered seat, even for young children) is very protective as well. You're talking about the difference between 4.4 and 4.41 grade point averages when you compare features like this, even if we COULD give grades.

Hazelandlucy · Oct 24, 2014

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv23/Session 18 Written.pdf

This article seems to be very pro load legs. I can't help but feel that with older toddlers it would be very helpful. That Max Fix has the load leg and a rebound bar. It's also passed the Plus test so must keep neck forces low?

Would the Coccoro be an ideal seat until outgrown? Euro routing (which I think helps the downward rotation??) and a tether for rebound?

Hazelandlucy · Oct 24, 2014

1mommy said:
Because our test vehicle for car seats doesn't have a floor to test the load leg with. A few infant seats have it but have to pass testing without it.

Just curious how those new infant seats can be used without a load leg if not tested with it? I thought everything allowed had to be crash tested if allowed with the seat- seat protectors, cup holders, etc!

1mommy · Oct 24, 2014

Hmm good question, I assume (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) that it is crash tested with it, its just not down, its folded up in the base so since its part of the seat it has been crash tested with it, just not with it down... But I'm not an expert on the way they test car seats- Maybe this thread will help

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=254906

ketchupqueen · Oct 24, 2014

Hazelandlucy said:
Just curious how those new infant seats can be used without a load leg if not tested with it? I thought everything allowed had to be crash tested if allowed with the seat- seat protectors, cup holders, etc!

They have to pass without it to meet the standard.

They test on an alternate sled for the load leg (as they do with rear facing tethering, side impact testing, etc.)

They have to pass the standard tests; they can test above and beyond that, it's just not part of compliance.

ketchupqueen · Oct 24, 2014

Hazelandlucy said:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv23/Session 18 Written.pdf

This article seems to be very pro load legs. I can't help but feel that with older toddlers it would be very helpful. That Max Fix has the load leg and a rebound bar. It's also passed the Plus test so must keep neck forces low?

Would the Coccoro be an ideal seat until outgrown? Euro routing (which I think helps the downward rotation??) and a tether for rebound?

Rear facing tethering has drawbacks as well as benefits.

Yes, limiting downward rotation is good, but there are other ways to do that.

For instance, if allowed by the vehicle, touching pre-crash the seat in front tests better than not touching unless there is a lot of space, in many cases. I have my rear-facer in the third row, touching the second row seat to get this benefit.

The thing is that you are going to find proponents of each brand of energy management who think their choice is ”best.” In the end, the goal is always energy transfer away from the child and controlling the forces exerted on the child. There are different ways to do that and they're all good! A more rigid seat transfers more energy to the child, so needs more ”bells and whistles” to mitigate that force. Whereas a light, flexible seat may not even need EPP foam, because energy transfer away from the child is so efficient when the seat can deform more!

ketchupqueen · Oct 24, 2014

Oh, the Plus Test- our seats aren't subjected to it, but having read the standard and some compliance numbers over the years, I have no doubt that many US seats could pass in the rear facing position on that particular measure.

Hazelandlucy · Oct 24, 2014

So if I have one convertible touch the front passenger seat and the other miles away from the driver seat and console (I am short and in a minivan, do you think that is just as good as the load leg on this seat

http://www.besafe.com/en/car-seat-products/toddlers-car-seat-0-18-0-25kg/izi-kid-i-size

or this one http://www.britax.co.uk/car-seats/car-seats/max-fix-ii

What about the rigid latch? The Max Fix I know is light enough that I could use the latch all the way up to 40 lbs.

I am 99% sure I want to bring a seat over, but I guess not if there really is no benefit. Seems like the reviews on the Nuna Pipa were all crazy about the load leg and rigid latch and to me it's even more important on a heavy toddler.

But I have a degree in horses, not engineering, lol!

cottonpenny · Oct 24, 2014

Hazelandlucy said:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv23/Session 18 Written.pdf

This article seems to be very pro load legs. I can't help but feel that with older toddlers it would be very helpful. That Max Fix has the load leg and a rebound bar. It's also passed the Plus test so must keep neck forces low?

Would the Coccoro be an ideal seat until outgrown? Euro routing (which I think helps the downward rotation??) and a tether for rebound?

What about a Britax with an Australian tether and an ARB? (not sure if that's even allowed, but now that the ARB is out I'm wondering if this would be a good option)

ketchupqueen · Oct 24, 2014

Hazelandlucy said:
So if I have one convertible touch the front passenger seat and the other miles away from the driver seat and console (I am short and in a minivan, do you think that is just as good as the load leg on this seat

http://www.besafe.com/en/car-seat-products/toddlers-car-seat-0-18-0-25kg/izi-kid-i-size

or this one http://www.britax.co.uk/car-seats/car-seats/max-fix-ii

What about the rigid latch? The Max Fix I know is light enough that I could use the latch all the way up to 40 lbs.

I am 99% sure I want to bring a seat over, but I guess not if there really is no benefit. Seems like the reviews on the Nuna Pipa were all crazy about the load leg and rigid latch and to me it's even more important on a heavy toddler.

But I have a degree in horses, not engineering, lol!

I think that both will be very good at force mitigation and dissipation. I think there is no way to directly compare. I encourage you to follow the law and use an approved seat; ultimately you have to decide what you're going to do.

Hazelandlucy · Oct 25, 2014

cottonpenny said:
What about a Britax with an Australian tether and an ARB? (not sure if that's even allowed, but now that the ARB is out I'm wondering if this would be a good option)

That study I linked earlier in the thread was using Australian tethers and they really helped. But also says load legs and rigid attachment would be effective and that's why I am so interested in the Swedish rigid latch/support leg seats. Seems a lot easier loading to just have a support leg!

I read that study again and it really focuses on the center seat usage and center console interference. If I put the baby in the center in a convertible, which they recommend for the higher shell, and removed the center console, would that a much safer way for her to ride?

Is it the rigidity of the console causing the injuries or would even the padded front seat back produce the same injuries at crash speed for an outboard child? What about injuries just from the motion of the seat going almost horizontal?

The poor baby in the article that did impact the console was in a Ford Escape in the center. However, it sounds like latch was being used. Is that allowed in that car and if not, could that have contributed?

I know when you reduce the flexibility and movement of the carseat with load legs, rebound bars, rigid latch, etc that the crash force could be distributed to the child.....but in the European seats this must be accounted for already and use foam and other energy management?

Having a hard time shaking the feeling that a support leg is safer for heavy toddlers rear facing. I have a Foonf and a 30 lb 3 yr old - that's 68 lbs right now and if I use it to 50 lbs, its 88 lbs - would that not be a tremendous amount of downward and forward rotation in a frontal crash? Does the fact that it does't hang off the back seat for leg room mean a support leg isn't necessary?

If the car doesn't allow bracing, it is better to have the carseat within 1 inch of the seat back or really far away so no chance of hitting at all?

ketchupqueen · Oct 25, 2014

The foonf is more upright to begin with. It limits downward rotation with both the base design and the upright angle.

When you cannot pre-crash touch, as significant of distance as possible is better, though this is only an issue in worst case scenarios or close to them, you understand.

_juune · Oct 25, 2014

Hazelandlucy said:
I know when you reduce the flexibility and movement of the carseat with load legs, rebound bars, rigid latch, etc that the crash force could be distributed to the child.....but in the European seats this must be accounted for already and use foam and other energy management?

All current rearfacing R44 seats have *something* to lessen the downward rotation, be it a support leg, "Euro routing", Australian-like tether [this is rare] or mandatory bracing to the front seat/dashboard. I do recall one Euro study where most common injuries by mass groups were shown and with infant seats it was mostly head injury and upper leg injury, while with the more upright and larger group 1 rear-facing seats it was arm injury. Here, scroll to pages 9-10.

cottonpenny · Oct 25, 2014

ketchupqueen said:
The foonf is more upright to begin with. It limits downward rotation with both the base design and the upright angle.

When you cannot pre-crash touch, as significant of distance as possible is better, though this is only an issue in worst case scenarios or close to them, you understand.

So with my Ranier, is it safer to be 1/4 inch away from the drivers seat in a fairly reclined position (45 degrees) or several inches away more upright (30 degrees). The reclined seat would obviously touch in a crash cause I think it will touch in a hard stop. The upright seat I guess it would depend on the force, but if it did touch it would hit it harder?

ketchupqueen · Oct 25, 2014

Generally more upright is considered safer as long as the child can tolerate that angle, as is more distance.

Support leg for rear facing convertibles

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