New Midsize SUV ratings - IIHS small-overlap test

AK Dad

New member
Wow, I'm really, really disappointed in the Honda Pilot! We bought ours in '11 based on it being rated "good" in all of the tests at the time, but it failed spectacularly in the small-overlap. I find this really hard to understand since the Acura MDX, which is essentially the same vehicle (or so I thought) previously scored "Good" on the same test ...

http://youtu.be/EjynD0ZW420
 
ADS

AK Dad

New member
Hmmm - I see now that the MDX was redesigned for the '14 MY and the Pilot is still the same basic structure since '09 ...
 

MotoMommaNH

New member
Its amazing to think that the Civic would protect the occupant better than a Pilot!! Is that accurate when it comes to the small overlap test? Or do they change testing parameters depending on the vehicle class?
 

AK Dad

New member
Its amazing to think that the Civic would protect the occupant better than a Pilot!! Is that accurate when it comes to the small overlap test? Or do they change testing parameters depending on the vehicle class?

Well, not exactly ... the key to interpreting any crash test into a barrier is that you're seeing the result of two identical vehicles hitting each other, so there's really no way to compare across vehicle classes and sizes. So, two Civics hitting each other with 25% offset would be safer for the driver than two Pilots hitting each other, but the increased size, height, and weight of the Pilot would win out (likely) in a collision of a Pilot to a Civic.

Here's IIHS's discussion of the comparison: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/vehicle-size-and-weight/qanda#vehicle-size-and-weight

And IMO, here's the best way to shop "safest" across all vehicle classes - real world crash statistics for Personal Injury and Medical Payment: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/insurance-loss-information
 

CarSafetyGuy

New member
Its amazing to think that the Civic would protect the occupant better than a Pilot!! Is that accurate when it comes to the small overlap test? Or do they change testing parameters depending on the vehicle class?

Whoa--this wouldn't happen. Remember, the small overlap, much like the moderate overlap, is based on weight. In other words, a poor scoring large vehicle may still protect you better than a good scoring small vehicle. Between the two vehicles, there's no question that I'd rather be in a Pilot than in a Civic if I were about to run into a telephone pole or another vehicle at 40 mph. In nearly every fatal crash I've blogged so far, the fatalities have almost always been in the lighter weight vehicle, regardless of the safety scores of either of the two vehicles. Structural integrity can only do so much.
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
Well, not exactly ... the key to interpreting any crash test into a barrier is that you're seeing the result of two identical vehicles hitting each other, so there's really no way to compare across vehicle classes and sizes. So, two Civics hitting each other with 25% offset would be safer for the driver than two Pilots hitting each other, but the increased size, height, and weight of the Pilot would win out (likely) in a collision of a Pilot to a Civic.

Here's IIHS's discussion of the comparison: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/vehicle-size-and-weight/qanda#vehicle-size-and-weight

And IMO, here's the best way to shop "safest" across all vehicle classes - real world crash statistics for Personal Injury and Medical Payment: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/insurance-loss-information

Whoa--this wouldn't happen. Remember, the small overlap, much like the moderate overlap, is based on weight. In other words, a poor scoring large vehicle may still protect you better than a good scoring small vehicle. Between the two vehicles, there's no question that I'd rather be in a Pilot than in a Civic if I were about to run into a telephone pole or another vehicle at 40 mph. In nearly every fatal crash I've blogged so far, the fatalities have almost always been in the lighter weight vehicle, regardless of the safety scores of either of the two vehicles. Structural integrity can only do so much.

It is important to point out that when modern vehicles crash into other modern vehicles and older vehicles crash into other older vehicle, size is usually the determining factor, but when older vehicles crash into newer vehicles the odds are better for the occupants on the newer vehicle. Stiff steel frames allow much more energy to transfer to the occupants than modern vehicles that are designed to crumple around a survivable space.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emtLLvXrrFs"]Fifth Gear - Renault Modus vs Volvo 940 crash test - YouTube[/ame]

Ignore the comments. You can clearly see the Volvo engine pivoted sideways at 6:50
 

sunnydayz

New member
The Pilot it up for a redesign or refresh for '15 correct? The Odyssey and MDX were both refreshed to pass the small overlap for '14.
 

MotoMommaNH

New member
Whoa--this wouldn't happen.

You are coming across a tad confrontational here, FYI. We are all here to ask questions and learn from one another. I was just drawing a comparison between the reportes injuries on the dummies and it seemed like the Civic dummy faired better. I'm going to chalk it up as you didn't mean it that way, I may be a little less sensitive than others is all.

AKDad , thanks for the explanation and links!
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Well, not exactly ... the key to interpreting any crash test into a barrier is that you're seeing the result of two identical vehicles hitting each other, so there's really no way to compare across vehicle classes and sizes. So, two Civics hitting each other with 25% offset would be safer for the driver than two Pilots hitting each other, but the increased size, height, and weight of the Pilot would win out (likely) in a collision of a Pilot to a Civic.

Exactly. Frontal crashes cannot easily be compared across weight classes, though side impacts often can. I'd probably choose the Pilot in this scenario as well, but I doubt vehicle vs. different vehicle 25% offset crashes are well studied to say for certain.

Here's IIHS's discussion of the comparison: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/vehicle-size-and-weight/qanda#vehicle-size-and-weight

And IMO, here's the best way to shop "safest" across all vehicle classes - real world crash statistics for Personal Injury and Medical Payment: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/insurance-loss-information

I am personally not a big fan of the IIHS fatality or injury data for specific vehicles as an overall safety comparison, if only because identical or extremely similar corporate twins often have different scores. If that kind of variability happens within the same vehicle class, the results are likely even more skewed when the driver demographics change across classes. For example, the Grand Caravan and T&C varied by over 10 points in personal and bodily injury insurance claims. The Sienna and Sienna 4WD had similar bodily injury claims, but varied by 18 points in personal injury. There seems to be a pretty wide margin of error even for essentially identical vehicles.

On the other hand, there probably is at least some correlation to crash-worthiness in these numbers; a particularly high or low score in insurance injury claims payouts relative to other models in the same class may raise an eyebrow?

www.informedforlife.com used to directly factor in weight for frontal crashes where it is more important and that would impact the vehicle's overall risk score. Unfortunately, they changed their methodology for model year 2013 vehicles and no longer do this directly. Instead, they take top models based on IIHS and NHTSA ratings, then filter those based on weight. A vehicle must essentially be above 3200 pounds to make their cut. Still reasonable in principle, but I liked the previous method, personally. That's what made their scores unique and something you couldn't find anywhere else. Now, they essentially do what I do, find vehicles that have 5-star overall NHTSA results, IIHS Top Picks and also don't have any individual crash test results of "3-stars" or "marginal" or worse. Then throw out all sub-compacts. Presto, safest vehicles list! Of course, even that eliminates a lot of very safe vehicles! Here's an interesting page they have on the topic, though: http://www.informedforlife.org/viewartcl.php?index=83

Whoa--this wouldn't happen. Remember, the small overlap, much like the moderate overlap, is based on weight. In other words, a poor scoring large vehicle may still protect you better than a good scoring small vehicle. Between the two vehicles, there's no question that I'd rather be in a Pilot than in a Civic if I were about to run into a telephone pole or another vehicle at 40 mph. In nearly every fatal crash I've blogged so far, the fatalities have almost always been in the lighter weight vehicle, regardless of the safety scores of either of the two vehicles. Structural integrity can only do so much.

An immovable object, like a solid wall or large pole will generally eliminate or at least reduce the mass of the vehicle as a factor. Regardless of the vehicle's weight, you'd definitely want to be in a vehicle that has a top rating for the type of crash involved (NHTSA full frontal for a wall, IIHS small overlap if you hit a pole on the far left front end). In fact, truck based vehicles with rigid body-on-frame designs can be a liability in a crash with a rigid wall or pole, even for the biggest passenger models. The stiff chassis transfers more energy to the occupants as it tends to crush less to absorb energy, because the wall or poll will stop the vehicle even more suddenly than a small car that crushes well, assuming the wall or pole doesn't yield, of course.

In a vehicle vs. vehicle head on, mass is definitely a benefit. Where the tradeoff is between a good/poor rating and weight of vehicle is subject to discussion, of course. Keep in mind that the 25% small overlap IIHS offset crash is just one type of crash, and it is worthy to note that it is a less common one than the NHTSA full frontal or IIHS moderate overlap frontal crash.

So, weight is generally an advantage. The sad irony is that large weight differences are dangerous to the much lighter vehicle, primarily when taller, heavier truck based models rip apart lower riding compact cars. The reality is we'd all be significantly safer on the roads if most vehicles were small cars with top crash test scores. Less mass on the roads means less energy in crashes. We'd also save an incredible amount of gas. Those are huge problems with our bigger-is-better society! Not that I'm innocent. I drive a 4,500lb. SUV, while my wife drives the 3,000 lb. fuel efficient vehicle...
 

AK Dad

New member
It is important to point out that when modern vehicles crash into other modern vehicles and older vehicles crash into other older vehicle, size is usually the determining factor, but when older vehicles crash into newer vehicles the odds are better for the occupants on the newer vehicle. Stiff steel frames allow much more energy to transfer to the occupants than modern vehicles that are designed to crumple around a survivable space.

Fifth Gear - Renault Modus vs Volvo 940 crash test - YouTube

Ignore the comments. You can clearly see the Volvo engine pivoted sideways at 6:50

Thanks for posting that video - saves me the trouble of finding it! I really like that one too. Hard to draw a lot of conclusions based on it alone, but I was surprised by the result. The other one I really like of course is the IIHS 50th anniversary one:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxd27jlZ_g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxd27jlZ_g[/ame]

And the vehicle size & weight one:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQUGk12S8U"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQUGk12S8U[/ame]
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Vehicles from 50+ years ago used no high-strength steel, like dual phase and trip steels that started to become common in the last 10-20 years. They have 3x (or greater) yield and tensile strength of today's mild steels, which are likely stronger than mild steels used in autos from 50+ years ago. I think use of high strength steel in autos started in the early 1970s in response to NHTSA and CAFE standards. Today, I've read that high strength steels typically comprise about 10-15% of the vehicle weight, used primarily in the safety cage and other critical areas for crash protection purposes. More importantly, vehicle designs today are so much better at distributing energy while crushing. When grandpaw says he'd much rather be in his '57 Chevy in a crash against your brand new Civic with its tiny lawnmower engine, I say let him take his chances in the '57 and keep you and your precious cargo in the Civic! Well, that's what I told my dad;-)
 

CarSafetyGuy

New member
You are coming across a tad confrontational here, FYI. We are all here to ask questions and learn from one another. I was just drawing a comparison between the reportes injuries on the dummies and it seemed like the Civic dummy faired better. I'm going to chalk it up as you didn't mean it that way, I may be a little less sensitive than others is all.

AKDad , thanks for the explanation and links!

Hi there - I didn't mean it in a confrontational way; I just get really passionate about the topic and was trying to shoot off a post before I had to get back to work. No harm meant!
 

CarSafetyGuy

New member
An immovable object, like a solid wall or large pole will generally eliminate or at least reduce the mass of the vehicle as a factor. Regardless of the vehicle's weight, you'd definitely want to be in a vehicle that has a top rating for the type of crash involved (NHTSA full frontal for a wall, IIHS small overlap if you hit a pole on the far left front end). In fact, truck based vehicles with rigid body-on-frame designs can be a liability in a crash with a rigid wall or pole, even for the biggest passenger models. The stiff chassis transfers more energy to the occupants as it tends to crush less to absorb energy, because the wall or poll will stop the vehicle even more suddenly than a small car that crushes well, assuming the wall or pole doesn't yield, of course.

I respectfully disagree, as the small overlap test also simulates the overlap collision among vehicles. From what I've seen, I'd say it's still better to be in a poor-scoring Pilot vs. a good-scoring Civic in that small overlap collision if they're impacting each other. And regarding the single vehicle crashes, I'd still take the Pilot, since it would be more likely to deform the pole or similar object.

In a vehicle vs. vehicle head on, mass is definitely a benefit. Where the tradeoff is between a good/poor rating and weight of vehicle is subject to discussion, of course. Keep in mind that the 25% small overlap IIHS offset crash is just one type of crash, and it is worthy to note that it is a less common one than the NHTSA full frontal or IIHS moderate overlap frontal crash.

Definitely agree here.

So, weight is generally an advantage. The sad irony is that large weight differences are dangerous to the much lighter vehicle, primarily when taller, heavier truck based models rip apart lower riding compact cars. The reality is we'd all be significantly safer on the roads if most vehicles were small cars with top crash test scores. Less mass on the roads means less energy in crashes. We'd also save an incredible amount of gas. Those are huge problems with our bigger-is-better society! Not that I'm innocent. I drive a 4,500lb. SUV, while my wife drives the 3,000 lb. fuel efficient vehicle...

I completely agree, and have campaigned for this for years. Large and heavy vehicles aren't necessary to keep people safe on the road in an ideal state, as is evident in a number of other countries with smaller cars and much lower death rates (e.g., Japan). However, until we have a number of changes in US laws regarding vehicle weights, traffic control, and drunk driving deterrence, right now, your best bet will still be to place yourself in a well-scoring heavier vehicle if safety is the most important element to you.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
My mistake- I just verified and for the small overlap test they did use a rigid barrier to better simulate a pole, unlike their moderate overlap test where a deformable barrier was used.
 

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