Interesting tidbit from Recaro

MotoMommaNH

New member
http://safetyandnews.recaropromotion.com/2014-upper-harness-weight-limit-changes/#more-691

1) they are lowering the Performance Sport harnessed weight limit from 90 to 65 lbs as they aren't going to do testing with the 10 year old dummy. Makes sense as the harnessed height (I don't think) could really accomodate a 90lb kid anyhow.

2) their reasoning for not creating a new seat to pass testing is they think harnessing a higher weight kiddo creates a potential for head injuries. They will recomend booster use for 65lb+ kids. I've never really heard this argument before but maybe we can discuss :)

When using an internal harness, two separate safety belt systems are used to protect the child. One anchors the child restraint to the vehicle and the other secures the child in the restraint. Both belts will elongate during a crash, which is beneficial because forces transferring to the child are reduced by the increased forward movement from both belts stretching. However, when a child who is over 65 pounds is using an internal harness, their forward movement may be increased too much with two belt systems, creating a higher risk for head impact injuries. But by only using the vehicle belt, as in a belt positioning booster, the elongation of the second belt (the harness) would be eliminated, reducing the risk of head impacts for heavier children. Therefore, it is our recommendation to consumers that when a child reaches 65 pounds they transition to a belt positioning booster.

do you agree?
 
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Pixels

New member
I say it is 99% marketing.

It is true that there is often more movement when you have a chain (harness) instead of direct attachment (booster). However, there are other manufacturers that have figured out how to make a seat that can pass the required testing. It can be done. Recaro just is choosing not to do so. I'm sure their Whatever Appropriate Department looked at the cost of designing a seat that can pass testing over 65 pounds vs the calculated income generated by marketing a seat with a limit higher than 65 pounds, and decided not to bother. Recaro is hardly the only seat that falls into this category.

Keep in mind that the head excursion limits have not changed with the 10 year old dummy. Only the dummy has changed. I don't think a 10 year old-sized child in a seat with a harness that passes the new standard is at any more risk for had strike than a 3 year old-sized child in a seat with a harness.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
I think it's rather convenient that they discovered danger to 65#+ kids in harnesses just as they were forced to discontinue making seats that harness to 65#+.

(FTR, I think *most* 65#+ kids are probably old enough to be boostered. I'm not upset at the lowered harness limits.)
 

MotoMommaNH

New member
I think it's rather convenient that they discovered danger to 65#+ kids in harnesses just as they were forced to discontinue making seats that harness to 65#+.

(FTR, I think *most* 65#+ kids are probably old enough to be boostered. I'm not upset at the lowered harness limits.)

That's kind of how I feel also...I doubt my children will be harnessed @ 65lbs. But their justification that they discovered it wasn't safe is kind of bogus... (not because they didn't want to develop a new seat.) :cool:
 

sunnymw

New member
So, is the weight limit of my performance sport now 65lbs instead of 90lbs?

(Not that I'll ever need it anyway, Jake is 42lbs at almost 8 years old...)
 

sunnydayz

New member
I think the Swedes have been making this argument for decades. Hence the reason they rear face to age 4 or 5 and move directly to a booster. I don't know the validity behind the argument, but it's certainly not a novel construct.

I do think it's a convenient time to adopt this philosophy though.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
So, is the weight limit of my performance sport now 65lbs instead of 90lbs?

(Not that I'll ever need it anyway, Jake is 42lbs at almost 8 years old...)

This only applies to new models labeled for 65 lbs., it is not retroactive.

It's also possible that the Recaro seats simply didn't have the seated shoulder height necessary to fit the new 10-year old dummy, like the Graco Argos 70.

I do agree with one thing, most people would never use the harness mode on the Argos 70 or Pro/Performance Sport models past 65 lbs. anyway. And even for the few who would, many kids above 65 pounds would be too tall anyway.

Here is the full press release:

NEWS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

RECARO Announces Full Compliance with New NHTSA Internal Harness Upper Weight Limit Safety Law

Auburn Hills, MI – XXXXXXXXX, 2014 – RECARO Child Safety, LLC is pleased to announce that all of their child safety restraints will be compliant with the new FMVSS 213 Standard changes introduced by NHTSA (National Highway Transportation Safety Administration) that will go into effect by February 27, 2014. The implementation of the new law means that when a child restraint is rated above 65 lbs. forward-facing and with an internal harness, it must pass testing in this scenario with a 10-year-old ATD (Anthropomorphic Testing Device). This 10-year-old ATD has recently been approved by NHTSA and has provided child restraint manufacturers the ability to perform crash tests which have revealed new data and only becomes an issue when tested with an auto lap belt only, which is part of the federal government testing protocol.

The RECARO products that are affected by the new law are the ProRIDE, Performance RIDE, and Performance SPORT. Although there was not an approved ATD for use to evaluate child restraints above 65 lbs. prior to this new law, RECARO had its own testing procedures for seats with higher weight limits. RECARO applauds NHTSA for implementing the new law and is confident it will increase proper overall use of child restraints.

“Lowering the internal harness weight limit on the Performance SPORT will be the biggest change to the product line,” said John Riedl, president of RECARO Child Safety. “We are lowering the maximum harness weight limit to 65 lbs, which the average child does not exceed until 9 ½ years old.”

The Performance SPORT allows consumers the ability to transition from an internal harness system to a booster seat, both of which offer equally impressive racing-inspired, full body side impact protection.

The deep side wings on the Performance SPORT protect a child’s full body – the head, neck, face, torso and pelvis. RECARO believes these features along with other comfort amenities such as memory foam, in use since 2012, encourages better pre-crash position and gives the Performance SPORT unmatched safety amongst marketplace competitors.

“When using an internal harness, two separate safety belt systems are used to protect the child,” said Chad Sparling, director of engineering at RECARO. “One anchors the child restraint to the vehicle, while the other secures the child in the restraint. Both belts will elongate during a crash, which is beneficial because forces transferring to the child are reduced by this increased forward movement. However, when a child who is over 65 lbs., which is an average 9 ½ year old, is using an internal harness, their forward movement may be increased too much with two belt systems, creating a higher risk for head impact injuries. Whereas, if you were to only use the vehicle belt, as in a belt positioning booster, you would eliminate the elongation of the second belt, which reduces the risk of head impact. Therefore, it’s our recommendation to consumers that when a child reaches 65 lbs. they transition the Performance SPORT to become a belt positioning booster.”

Sparling added, “We potentially could design a child restraint to pass excursion requirements by increasing the stiffness of the seat, however it will result in more force being transferred to the child, which is counterproductive to safety.”

RECARO is confident that the implementation of this new law will only increase the appropriate use of child restraints industry-wide. For more information about the FMVSS 213 Standard change, please visit the NHTSA website at www.NHTSA.gov. Please contact RECARO customer service with questions or to learn more about their line of child safety products at 1-888-9RECARO or info-usa@recaro-cs.com.

About RECARO Child Safety, LLC:
For over one hundred years, the RECARO brand has been internationally recognized as the leader in seating safety, ergonomics, comfort and style. Presently, RECARO Child Safety, LLC (RCS) is one of the world's leading manufacturers of child safety seats, combining the technology of race car safety with luxury design and modern color palettes. Today, all RECARO ProSERIES and Performance Series child safety seats are hand-assembled in the United States of America. With new innovations on the way, RECARO is positioned to innovate the entire child safety seating category once again. For more information about RCS, please visit the company’s website at www.recaro-cs.com.
 

Carrie_R

Ambassador - CPS Technician
On the positive side, a little birdie told me the 52lb tether limit should be going away. It won't be retroactive but since that is my main reservation in recommending the seat, I am thrilled to hear it.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
On the positive side, a little birdie told me the 52lb tether limit should be going away. It won't be retroactive but since that is my main reservation in recommending the seat, I am thrilled to hear it.

That would be great, though their design does keep the shoulder belt across the top of the reinforced shell so presumably that would help head excursion when the tether is not used. Possibly not enough for the 10-year old dummy, depending how you read their press release, of course.
 

Pixels

New member
On the positive side, a little birdie told me the 52lb tether limit should be going away. It won't be retroactive but since that is my main reservation in recommending the seat, I am thrilled to hear it.

Considering that roughly half of vehicles have a 65 pound combined limit and the Pro Sport weighs 21 pounds, eh. That's only an increase in tether usage of two pounds, from 52 to 54 pounds.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Considering that roughly half of vehicles have a 65 pound combined limit and the Pro Sport weighs 21 pounds, eh. That's only an increase in tether usage of two pounds, from 52 to 54 pounds.

That would actually be a decrease, from 52 to 44.
 

Carrie_R

Ambassador - CPS Technician
True, but they'll be going there regardless. In the other half, they'll gain that 13.

I do agree with Darren though, the serpentine shoulder belt should help with head excursion.
 

MotoMommaNH

New member
I think the Swedes have been making this argument for decades. Hence the reason they rear face to age 4 or 5 and move directly to a booster. I don't know the validity behind the argument, but it's certainly not a novel construct.

I do think it's a convenient time to adopt this philosophy though.

Their argument is more centered on neck load numbers though. Not necessarily head injuries because of belt stretching.

From what I understand, either is debatable without more studies done.
 

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