Question Using a harnessed seat is not any safer than a high back booster for kids 4 and older???

NatNat's Mom

New member
I've seen this statement posted by several members on this site. I understand there's no research, but wouldn't common sense come into play here? How is a harnessed seat not safer? Many say to rear face to the limit of seat, which in some cases turns out to be 4 or 5yrs. I guess that physically a 40lb, 40" person would properly fit a booster, but what 4 yr old is mature enough to sit still, not slump, etc enough that they have a good fit every time? Genuinely wondering, cuz I know a lot of preschoolers (I sub a lot at my daughter's school) & they're just too wiggly & impulsive at this age.

-Mommy to Natalia (4) 37.5lbs, 44" harnessed in a Britax Frontier 90 & occasionally Frontier 85 & MA 70
 
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tiggercat

New member
I've seen this statement posted by several members on this site. I understand there's no research, but wouldn't common sense come into play here? How is a harnessed seat not safer? Many say to rear face to the limit of seat, which in some cases turns out to be 4 or 5yrs. I guess that physically a 40lb, 40" person would properly fit a booster, but what 4 yr old is mature enough to sit still, not slump, etc enough that they have a good fit every time? Genuinely wondering, cuz I know a lot of preschoolers (I sub a lot at my daughter's school) & they're just too wiggly & impulsive at this age.

-Mommy to Natalia (4) 37.5lbs, 44" harnessed in a Britax Frontier 90 & occasionally Frontier 85 & MA 70

The key is the maturity aspect. For a child who is over 4 and 40lb, and can sit properly every ride, we have no evidence to suggest they are safer in a harnessed seat than a booster. That doesn't mean that they are less safe in a harnessed seat, just that there is no evidence to support harnessing forever.

The advantage to a booster for a kid big and mature enough to ride in one, is that the shoulders are not held back while the head flies forward. Everything slows down together when the seatbelt restrains the child.
 
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1mommy

New member
Everywhere I see that statement (and have said it myself) make sure to add and is mature enough. Now most 4 year olds can't but some can.

Some people attribute it to a high rate of misuse for car seats saying that a booster is easier to use properly so therefore = safer (again providing kid can sit properly) and others point to Sweden where they do not forward face in a harness, they switch straight to a booster from rear facing. As tiggercat pointed out some people have concerns about neckloads in a car seat, where a child's body is restrained but your head/neck flies forward, and worry that it can cause too much stress on the neck/spine. Really the bottom is line is that it is not PROVEN to be safer, and it is up to the parent as to what they are comfortable with.
 

TechnoGranola

Forum Ambassador
There is some research by Transport Canada showing that harnessing may be safer for up to about age 6 I think it is. I haven't read the article for awhile so I can't remember the full conclusions. I've posted it here several times but I don't think anyone reads it when I do as there are never any comments after. Ha ha.

I'll try and find it again but if someone else finds one of my posts here with it, please post a link.
 

tiggercat

New member
I think the child's personality is also important. My eldest rode in a booster starting at 4 and did amazing. He is a rule follower and sat perfectly.

My youngest is 4 and nowhere near ready for a booster! I couldn't even snap a fit picture of him in a booster without him leaning over and unbuckling to get something he wanted from the floor.
 

tiggercat

New member
There is some research by Transport Canada showing that harnessing may be safer for up to about age 6 I think it is. I haven't read the article for awhile so I can't remember the full conclusions. I've posted it here several times but I don't think anyone reads it when I do as there are never any comments after. Ha ha.

I'll try and find it again but if someone else finds one of my posts here with it, please post a link.

Really? Do post, I want to read!
 

1mommy

New member
There is some research by Transport Canada showing that harnessing may be safer for up to about age 6 I think it is. I haven't read the article for awhile so I can't remember the full conclusions. I've posted it here several times but I don't think anyone reads it when I do as there are never any comments after. Ha ha.

I'll try and find it again but if someone else finds one of my posts here with it, please post a link.

I'd be curious to read it too, granted I have no plans on boostering my son until 5/6 ish depending on what we end up doing for kindergarten and transportation, but I'd still be curious.
 

tiggercat

New member
I wish they gave more details. I am assuming this is the testing they did while deciding to allow >48lb harnessed seats into Canada? I'd also love to know which boosters were which. I'll need to go rerread the TC testing pages for that, I guess.

Restraining the dummy in a CRS rated to the
appropriate weight limit may be a viable option
for children between the ages of four and six.
The chest is restrained by a 5-point harness,
which distributes the loads well and effectively
couples both the upper and lower torso of the
dummy to the vehicle. Though the neck loads
remained elevated, the level of injury risk that
may be associated with these values is not
known and further investigation, through
accident reconstruction is needed to validate the
biofidelity of the dummy neck.


Edited to add, I am not big on putting young kids in boosters. Very few 4 or 5 year olds can truly sit properly every ride. Personally, I prefer to harness until at least 6 or seat is outgrown. Where this info comes into play is a parent who has a well behaved 6,7,8 year old who is encouraged to purchase a larger 5pt restraint when there is no evidence to think it is necessary or safer, because they have read to harness "as long as possible".
 

christineka

New member
It's a simple matter of we have no proof that harnessing past 4 is any safer. Then the Swedes have their theories and whatever the Swedes do is considered the absolute truth when it comes to vehicle safety.

I don't buy it. I recommend children ride harnessed until 5-6 years or when they are mature enough to sit properly every ride and my own children ride harnessed until at least 8.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Data collection in the real world includes a cop putting down 'carseat' for kids under 4 and 'booster' for kids over four (or nothing, or seatbelt, of course, if appropriate), so it's going to take some changes in data collection and accuracy before we really have proof that harnessing or boostering is safe, safer, safest for kids in older age groups.
Now I wish I could find an older Swedish study (I THINK Swedish), that showed kids on the younger end of the booster spectrum/vehicle seatbelt alone spectrum, were at more danger in the less protective mode of seating than kids older (ie, 3/4 year olds were NOT as safe in boosters as kids 6/7 and kids 7/8 in seatbelts were NOT as safe as kids 9/10, something along those lines).
I suspect, personally, that kids are in fact safer when harnessed longer--more like into the 5-7 range, but there's no proof.... yet.
 

wavegal

New member
Like others said maturity is a HUGE factor in booster safety. IMO most kids are probably better off in a harness till 6. By then most will have the maturity to ride properly in a booster and the idea of equal force on the body instead of more on the head and neck is a benefit as well.

My 5 yr old is still harnessed and will be for at-least the next 6 mths to a year even though he does well for occasional booster use and fits perfectly in his Parkway SGL.
 

Brigala

CPST Instructor
I intend to harness my child as long as I can.

I hesitate to recommend that course of action broadly, because I've seen first hand how difficult it is for even the most conscientious parents to use car seats correctly every time. I also run across a lot of parents who don't realize their seats have *height* limitations as well as weight ones.

Most children will outgrow even the mid-range higher-capacity seats (Secure Kid, etc.) by height at around age 5 or 6, so that's usually the time I tell parents they should be moving to a booster. I find that instructions like "tops of ears level with the top of the car seat" or "shoulders over the harness in its highest position" are just too complicated for most parents to keep in mind. Car seats are not the biggest thing on most parents' minds. They want their kids to be safe, yes, but the day to day obsession that CSO parents like us have with car seats is not normal. So "Most kids are ready for boosters sometime between the start of Kindergarten and the start of 1st grade" is a tangible, easy to understand concept that is more likely to "stick." NHTSA's recommendations of "harness as long as possible" leads people who consider themselves experts to post You Tube videos of their 9 year olds in Recaro seats with shoulders about 4" above the harness... just like the "rear face as long as possible" sometimes leads parents to drive around with their 34 lb children in SR35s. So instead of just telling parents to RF as long as possible, I tell them to use the infant seat until about age _____ (depending on which infant seat they have), get a rear-facing convertible, and come back for further instruction. Yes, I go over more details than that, but I don't expect the parents to actually retain 30 minutes worth of car seat check material. I repeat something like this over and over: "This seat should last until about 9 months, maybe a year if your child stays short. The next step will be a convertible seat, installed rear facing. Please come back when it's time to make the switch so we can help you again."

So, yeah. I'm an advocate of extended harnessing. But I am careful about how I convey that to parents. I can't count the number of people I've known (the ones, usually, who think they know too much to come to a car seat clinic unfortunately) who brag about keeping their 8 year olds in harnesses and who are totally oblivious to the fact that the seat is outgrown, loose, and not tethered.

Me? I am not at all convinced that neck loads are as much of a concern as head excursion. If they were, then we wouldn't be top tethering harnessed seats. I would wear a 5-point harness in the car if I could.
 

Carrie_R

Ambassador - CPS Technician
There is also a study, somewhere, that shows kids under 5 in boosters are at greater risk for head injuries than their older boostered counterparts.

I flip-flop on how I feel about that 4-6 age group, so I chicken out of the decision by RFing as long as possible, and bolstering around kindergarten age. 5.5 seems to work pretty well for me, in my experience.
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
I intend to harness my child as long as I can.

I hesitate to recommend that course of action broadly, because I've seen first hand how difficult it is for even the most conscientious parents to use car seats correctly every time. I also run across a lot of parents who don't realize their seats have *height* limitations as well as weight ones.

Most children will outgrow even the mid-range higher-capacity seats (Secure Kid, etc.) by height at around age 5 or 6, so that's usually the time I tell parents they should be moving to a booster. I find that instructions like "tops of ears level with the top of the car seat" or "shoulders over the harness in its highest position" are just too complicated for most parents to keep in mind. Car seats are not the biggest thing on most parents' minds. They want their kids to be safe, yes, but the day to day obsession that CSO parents like us have with car seats is not normal. So "Most kids are ready for boosters sometime between the start of Kindergarten and the start of 1st grade" is a tangible, easy to understand concept that is more likely to "stick." NHTSA's recommendations of "harness as long as possible" leads people who consider themselves experts to post You Tube videos of their 9 year olds in Recaro seats with shoulders about 4" above the harness... just like the "rear face as long as possible" sometimes leads parents to drive around with their 34 lb children in SR35s. So instead of just telling parents to RF as long as possible, I tell them to use the infant seat until about age _____ (depending on which infant seat they have), get a rear-facing convertible, and come back for further instruction. Yes, I go over more details than that, but I don't expect the parents to actually retain 30 minutes worth of car seat check material. I repeat something like this over and over: "This seat should last until about 9 months, maybe a year if your child stays short. The next step will be a convertible seat, installed rear facing. Please come back when it's time to make the switch so we can help you again."

So, yeah. I'm an advocate of extended harnessing. But I am careful about how I convey that to parents. I can't count the number of people I've known (the ones, usually, who think they know too much to come to a car seat clinic unfortunately) who brag about keeping their 8 year olds in harnesses and who are totally oblivious to the fact that the seat is outgrown, loose, and not tethered.

Me? I am not at all convinced that neck loads are as much of a concern as head excursion. If they were, then we wouldn't be top tethering harnessed seats. I would wear a 5-point harness in the car if I could.

Age is not an indicator of when a seat is outgrown and it should NEVER be implied that it is. We (those of us who have been doing this for the past 15-20 years) have fought tooth and nail to uncouple age from the laws and instructions regarding carseats. Remembering the specifics is what the handouts are for. I have a handout specifically for reminding people how to tell when their particular seat is outgrown. Just basically, your car seat's name is __________the model number is _______ the manu date is ______ The weight limit rear facing is ____ the height limit forward facing is ____ ...get the picture?

Your job as a tech is to make sure the parent has accurate information. It's not your job to decide what the parents are capable of remembering or not.
 

Brigala

CPST Instructor
Your job as a tech is to make sure the parent has accurate information. It's not your job to decide what the parents are capable of remembering or not.

I do give them accurate information about how to tell when the seat is outgrown. I spend a crazy amount of time with parents (I haven't timed myself but I'm sure it's more than 30 minutes per seat at events, and usually an hour + during private checks where there's no line). I cover and demonstrate the height limits, weight limits, shell height, how to measure, 1" rules, harness height, blah blah blah. I don't have any control over which hand-outs are given at events, but I give out USAA booklets at private checks.

I also provide age estimates based on the seat they have and the size of their child, and I tell them that their child may grow faster or slower than expected, but I find a conservative estimate helps the parents in a situation where they're on information overload.

I do not provide age estimates for unborn children or newborns because it's too early to tell where they're going to be on the charts. But if I have an 8 month old show up in an infant seat, I can give a pretty accurate guestimate for how many months they probably have left to choose a convertible. When I had to turn a giant 22 month old FF in his My Ride due to his weight, I showed the parents how little room he had left before reaching the top harness slot and told them I guessed the seat would last him at least 6 months longer but probably no more than a year and told them to buy a Frontier or a SureRide. Without those kinds of estimates, the only part the parents retain is the 65 lbs because it's the easiest number to keep in their heads.

It's my job as a tech to have a kid leave safer than he or she arrived. I know this isn't part of the standard format, but I also believe it's my job as a tech to keep the child safer for as long as possible. Expecting parents to hold on to their booklet and refer to it every 6 months to remind themselves what the growing-room rules are is unrealistic in my experience.
 

Mom2natalie

New member
This thread has helped put my mind at ease.

Two weeks ago I moved my daughter who is almost 6 1/2 into a high back booster. I agonized over it, felt guilty about it. Now I see that she's probably okay in the booster.

Right now my husband and I are still buckling her and really making sure the belt is positioned correctly.
 

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