Question Cardiff booster seat headrest and NBB vs HBB safety.

penguingrooves · Jan 30, 2014

two questions. has anyone ever used the cardiff booster seat headrest? i read what little info was found via google including the CSO blog entry and am hoping that some forum members have experience with it because i can't seem to find any reviews.

http://cardiffproducts.com/

i'm guessing the wings don't provide much side-impact protection, which brings me to my second question. on this board, i've seen comments that a NBB is just as safe as HBB if the seatbelt fits the child correctly, yet some HBBs tout the SIP feature. if both a NBB and HBB offer the same protection, why are companies bothering with humongous headrest simply to keep a child upright?

this product could spare me from buying a new car if i can use a no-back booster for my future 3-across. thanks in advance.

1mommy · Jan 30, 2014

There was a thread about this not to long ago I remember and someone had a powerpoint presentation on it, I'm searching but can't currently find it. it may be more that we have no standard testing for side impact so we can't really say one way or the other. Personally I wouldn't go out and buy a new car just because it doesn't have side airbag curtains (I'm guessing) but it would be something I would put on my list of required safety features when I am buying my next car, just not buy a new car because of it.

Baylor · Jan 30, 2014

Id like to know what kind of testing has been done on it?

SafeDad · Jan 30, 2014

As a safety feature, it's hard to say how effective head wings would be on a booster in a side impact. Watch your kids in a booster. A lot of the time they are leaning forward to look past the wings, leaning over to poke a sibling, head tilted down to look at a screen, etc. In a typical side impact, the car that is struck often was moving forward before the crash. That will also tend to cause the upper body to move forward, with the head moving out of the confines of any head protection.

I suggest that no type of head wings on a booster or aftermarket product are even close to the protection provided by side curtain airbags. While head wings could provide reasonable protection in some types of side impacts when the child was positioned correctly at the time of the crash, side curtain airbags are always going to cover the entire area that could protect the occupant's head.

More on HBB vs LBB:

http://carseatblog.com/8243/to-backless-or-not-to-backless-that-is-the-question/

tiggercat · Jan 30, 2014

I think it is a matter of not having enough data on actual and proper use to quantify any difference in safety between hbb and backless. We know boosters in general save lives but the occupant must be in the correct position. Whether or not a hbb provides a benefit in a SIP, I find it makes a big difference in correct belt positioning throughout the trip, even for my 8yo.

I have some concerns about the safety off this aftermarket product, though I admit I don't know a ton about it.
First, It limits head movement in a SIP but not torso, like boosters tend to do. Will that cause cervical spine injury?
Second, There is a big metal bar immediately behind the child's head. I do not like that. It also seems to force some head restraint to be higher than ideal to allow for the mounting bar.
Third, in many of the pictures I find, smaller riders have leaned sideways to lie on the wings, slipping their shoulder out from under the belt.
Fourth, It is created and tested as a comfort product, not a safety one.
I would lean towards using a HBB over this kind of product where possible. This may be helpful and benefit kids too big to booster, or to big to HBB, but I don't think it ought to replace hbb for kids that fit and can benefit from them..

(Sorry for the disjointed post, the app kept crashing on me so I had to edit inn each thought independently)

veggiegirl228 · Jan 30, 2014

carseatblog talks about it.

http://carseatblog.com/25189/abc-expo-2013-cardiff-booster-seat-headrest/

SafeDad · Jan 30, 2014

tiggercat said:
I have some concerns about the safety off this aftermarket product, though I admit I don't know a ton about it.
First, It limits head movement in a SIP but not torso, like boosters tend to do. Will that cause cervical spine injury?
Second, There is a big metal bar immediately behind the child's head. I do not like that. It also seems to force some head restraint to be higher than ideal to allow for the mounting bar.
Third, in many of the pictures I find, smaller riders have leaned sideways to lie on the wings, slipping their shoulder out from under the belt.
Fourth, It is created and tested as a comfort product, not a safety one.
I would lean towards using a HBB over this kind of product where possible. This may be helpful and benefit kids too big to booster, or to big to HBB, but I don't think it ought to replace hbb for kids that fit and can benefit from them..

These are basically the reasons we haven't yet opted to do a full review on one at CarseatBlog. The same generally applies for most types of 3rd party, aftermarket carseat accessories. We sometimes report about them (like at the ABC show) and occasionally review a product that seems harmless. Otherwise it's difficult to recommend some types of products in a full review, one on which a parent might base a buying decision. Not that they are unsafe in any way, but simply unknown, due to a lack of data.

For example, since there are no safety standards in place for aftermarket devices, we don't even know if there could be a risk in a frontal crash. Will the child's head be thrown forward and then rebound back energetically, with the back of their head striking the front of a head protection wing? The same is true of a high back booster. Not an issue if that portion of the wing is foam, but what if there is a hard plastic or metal shell or support?

I think it is a clever product and would consider using one for my 8-year old. I don't think I could recommend for or against one to another parent without some safety information, though.

Baylor · Jan 30, 2014

CPSDarren said:
These are basically the reasons we haven't yet opted to do a full review on one at CarseatBlog. The same generally applies for most types of 3rd party, aftermarket carseat accessories. We sometimes report about them (like at the ABC show) and occasionally review a product that seems harmless. Otherwise it's difficult to recommend some types of products in a full review, one on which a parent might base a buying decision. Not that they are unsafe in any way, but simply unknown, due to a lack of data.

For example, since there are no safety standards in place for aftermarket devices, we don't even know if there could be a risk in a frontal crash. Will the child's head be thrown forward and then rebound back energetically, with the back of their head striking the front of a head protection wing? The same is true of a high back booster. Not an issue if that portion of the wing is foam, but what if there is a hard plastic or metal shell or support?

I think it is a clever product and would consider using one for my 8-year old. I don't think I could recommend for or against one to another parent without some safety information, though.

It is such a shame that Car manufacturers have not caught on and made an optional winged head rest for purchase.

Lovatic24 · Jan 30, 2014

I have the headrest. The back part is not metal, it's a strong plastic. the wings have a plastic structure and the fabric is fairly padded and can be zipped off to wash. I am 22 and i use it because i have low tone and it helps me stay in proper position and not lean or slouch. it is very comfy. i read somewhere online that they were working on having different colors and patterns available instead of just black.

TechnoGranola · Jan 30, 2014

CPSDarren said:
Will the child's head be thrown forward and then rebound back energetically, with the back of their head striking the front of a head protection wing? The same is true of a high back booster.

So now you're giving me something else to worry about? Argh! I thought dynamic testing would cover slamming your head back into the headwings of boosters? No? Or the specific tests they do don't cover that?

SafeDad · Jan 30, 2014

I'm not positive, but even if the instrumentation picks up the event, the question is how often does this sort of event occur and would a straight-on frontal crash test cause it to occur vs. partial frontal or offset types of tests. Hopefully, such injuries would be relatively minor, say bruises and bumps? I really haven't seen much about it, so purely speculation. I've never really given it a second thought in regard to using a high back booster.

penguingrooves · Jan 30, 2014

thank you for all your opinions and experience!

tiggercat said:
I would lean towards using a HBB over this kind of product where possible. This may be helpful and benefit kids too big to booster, or to big to HBB, but I don't think it ought to replace hbb for kids that fit and can benefit from them..

i'd prefer to use a HBB, too. without getting a new car, i don't see how i can work a HBB if my mega-torso-baby #3 grows out of his Cocorro for a 3-across in the Honda Fit. i'm always looking for narrowest booster options and most likely without armrests. my kids are very petite, so it's not like we need the width. my oldest daughter will be at least 7 when she's FF-ed. she's stuck RFing since she's still too light for a LBB, and i'm cool with that, hah! thankfully, she hasn't complained. right now, i'm still fighting the inevitability of driving a minivan or a gigantic SUV...

CPSDarren said:
Will the child's head be thrown forward and then rebound back energetically, with the back of their head striking the front of a head protection wing? The same is true of a high back booster. Not an issue if that portion of the wing is foam, but what if there is a hard plastic or metal shell or support?

yeah, i'm with technogranola. like i needed something else to worry about, oy! this is not good for my neurosis. i just might RF the kids until they're in middle school since they're very petite. i think i might still get the headrest, but first, i also want to check, feel and squeeze the headwings of every carseat i can touch.

safeinthecar · Jan 30, 2014

I don't have one, but that is a money issue, not a safety issue. We have to take a minimum of 12 6+ hour roadtrips a year. Making them as comfortable as possible is essential for sanity. My kids are also floppy sleepers, when they sleep in the car, I have to constantly check on them because they end up out of position often. Having my attention on the road more, and them in position more is a gain in safety right out the gate.

I have no expectation of SIP from the Cardiff, but I don't have much expectation of it for booster head wings either. Even if you look at NASCAR, which does have a ton of data to go from, the emphasis is more about how to keep the restraint system in the best possible position than anything.

christineka · Jan 30, 2014

I'm going to buy one as soon as I get $50. I have a 12 year old, who uses her sibling's booster as a head rest. Some day (possibly soon), that sibling will outgrow the high back booster.

Question Cardiff booster seat headrest and NBB vs HBB safety.

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