Rearfacing only harness slots?

Mom_In_SA · Nov 14, 2013

Hi all, I have a question about my convertible carseat. There are 4 harness slots, but I noticed that the top 2 slots are significantly higher than the bottom 2, ie there is more of a space between the top and bottom 2 slots than there is between the 1st and 2nd or the 3rd and 4th (I hope I am making sense!!).

I checked the manual, and there is no instruction to use only the bottom 2 for RF.. Infact there is no height limit for RF, it just states that the shoulder belt should be slightly below shoulder level. The weight limit for RF is 13kg(about 30 pounds).

But... why would there be such a difference in the spacing of the harness slots if the top sets are not to be used FF only? My daughter is currently RF, using the second set of slots, which are already below her shoulders, and she will have a lot of growing to do before she reaches the next set of slots... infact now I am wondering whether the straps will slip off her shoulders before she reaches the next set!!

I have attached the manual for those who would like to check.. The diagrams are on pages 5-10 and the English instructions are on pages 28-32.

Thanks in advance

ETA : So the file size of the manual is too large to upload

. Its in pdf format. But really, there is nothing in there about the top harness slots being for FF only. Just 0-13kg for RF and 9-18kg for FF.

jordansmom · Nov 14, 2013

Mom_In_SA said:
Hi all, I have a question about my convertible carseat. There are 4 harness slots, but I noticed that the top 2 slots are significantly higher than the bottom 2, ie there is more of a space between the top and bottom 2 slots than there is between the 1st and 2nd or the 3rd and 4th (I hope I am making sense!!).

I checked the manual, and there is no instruction to use only the bottom 2 for RF.. Infact there is no height limit for RF, it just states that the shoulder belt should be slightly below shoulder level. The weight limit for RF is 13kg(about 30 pounds).

But... why would there be such a difference in the spacing of the harness slots if the top sets are not to be used FF only? My daughter is currently RF, using the second set of slots, which are already below her shoulders, and she will have a lot of growing to do before she reaches the next set of slots... infact now I am wondering whether the straps will slip off her shoulders before she reaches the next set!!

I have attached the manual for those who would like to check.. The diagrams are on pages 5-10 and the English instructions are on pages 28-32.

Thanks in advance

ETA : So the file size of the manual is too large to upload . Its in pdf format. But really, there is nothing in there about the top harness slots being for FF only. Just 0-13kg for RF and 9-18kg for FF.

What is the name of the seat?

Mom_In_SA · Nov 14, 2013

Hi Jordansmom, the seat is a Chicco New Zenith carseat. Here is the link to the product info:

http://www.chicco.com/ProdottiChicc...rt/00067793590000/language/en-US/Default.aspx

If you click on the pdf icon above the description, you can download the manual (its > 3Mb!), and you can check the diagrams and English instructions there.

Thanks for responding!

newyorkDOC · Nov 14, 2013

I read the Italian as chicco is Italian and that's the original language of the manual.
It says that the harness should always be below shoulders, regardless if RF or FF. It makes no mention of the gap between the second and third slots but I suspect it may have something to do with the insert then removing the insert.

featherhead · Nov 14, 2013

newyorkDOC said:
I read the Italian as chicco is Italian and that's the original language of the manual.
It says that the harness should always be below shoulders, regardless if RF or FF. It makes no mention of the gap between the second and third slots but I suspect it may have something to do with the insert then removing the insert.

Do you mean the shoulders always below harness? That would make sense for a non North American seat. Harness always below shoulders does not make sense.

newyorkDOC · Nov 14, 2013

La posizione corretta dell’altezza delle cinture è leggermente al di sotto del livello delle spalle (Fig. 5)

Translation:
The correct position of the harness height is slightly below shoulder level (fig.5)

However figure 5 shows the correct position to be AT shoulder level and NOT above or below.

There's no distinction between RF and FF. The only difference is that in RF mode the seat must be fully reclined and you must use a 3-pt belt vs 4 recline positions in FF and you can use a 2-pt belt.

Mom_In_SA · Nov 15, 2013

Hi, thanks guys for the input. I also noticed that the diagram shows the harness slots to be at shoulder level and not below.. of course that is not always possible! So my understanding is that we can use it RF till the top slots, as long as the harness slots are at or below shoulder level and the weight of the child is less than 13kg (30 pounds), the spacing between the top 2 slot sets and the bottom 2 slot sets not really a factor... am I right?

newyorkDOC · Nov 15, 2013

In Europe, you aim for level with shoulders and if not possible, then between shoulders and ears.
TBH I'd email or message chicco on FB and ask about the shell height limit. My daughter didn't hit 13 kg until she was 3 and if the shell is short on that seat, she'd probably have been at or above the shell height. AFAIK only Swedish seats allow the child to have their head above the shell.

Mom_In_SA · Nov 15, 2013

Thanks Newyorkdoc. Right now, the harness slots are just below her shoulders and those are the 2nd from the bottom set of harness slots. If I move her to the next set, the slots are below her ears and doesnt seem as if the harnesses hold her properly, as much as I tighten it. I feel as if she could easily get her arm under the harness.

The seat is quite a tall seat, with the top quite a bit higher than the top harness slots. I'm assuming once she gets to the top harness slots at shoulder level, her head would still be more than 1" away from the top. I will email chicco and ask them for clarification.

Ok.. so now I don't know what to do, move her to the next set of harness slots, or keep her on the current ones until she can fit more securely on the higher ones?

Mom_In_SA · Nov 15, 2013

I just checked the level of the 2nd to the top harness slots, they are above my daughter's ear lobes, but below the top of her ears.

The more I think about it, the more I have to question the harness-above-shoulder-level for RF. It seems to go against the function of the shoulder harnesses in a collision for an RF child?

Pixels · Nov 15, 2013

Mom_In_SA said:
I just checked the level of the 2nd to the top harness slots, they are above my daughter's ear lobes, but below the top of her ears.

The more I think about it, the more I have to question the harness-above-shoulder-level for RF. It seems to go against the function of the shoulder harnesses in a collision for an RF child?

It is common on European seats to always have the harness above the shoulders.

There is a concern that during a crash, the harness pulling down on the shoulders will cause spinal compression. That concern has led to most seats requiring the harness at or above for forward facing (many years ago, most North American seats allowed the harness below the shoulders for forward facing). European seats are designed with the same concern for rear facing. They use bracing or load legs to greatly reduce downward rotation, so the child does not ramp up the seat as much in the first place. The lap portion of the harness holds the child down, but the harness doesn't have to do as much holding down due to the reduced downward rotation.

North American seats do not rely on bracing or a load leg (foot prop) in order to pass crash testing. Therefore, they rotate downward more, and the harness has to do more of the holding down. Both the lap and shoulder straps participate in that. It spreads the forces out over more of the body.

I don't think that one or the other is better or worse. They are just different designs.

Mom_In_SA · Nov 15, 2013

Thanks Pixels, that explains it quite clearly. I have attached pictures of her in the seat to show the level of the slots in relation to her body. Just so I can have some rec's as to which set of slots to use?

Pixels · Nov 15, 2013

Use the slots indicated by the manufacturer. For this seat, it's the slots at or below the shoulder.

Mom_In_SA · Nov 18, 2013

Just to update everyone, here is the response I got from Chicco:

"We recommend that you use the slots which are most comfortable for your child at the present time and move them as she grows.

The shell height is as per your email below.

I hope that I have been able to assist. "

In my email I asked if the shell height is 68 cm, which is the published height of the seat...

newyorkDOC · Nov 18, 2013

What a rubbish answer. My child does not get to decide what the most comfortable height is for himself/herself. And as for shell height, that doesn't answer when it's outgrown - whether head is even with the top of shell, 1" below shell, etc.

Mom_In_SA · Nov 18, 2013

Yes I agree, it's not very helpful. For now, I will use the current slots and will move her to the next as soon as it is at a reasonable level between her ears and shoulders.

As to the shell height limit, I plan to use the seat until the top harness slots are level with her shoulders or her head is 1" below the top of the shell, whichever comes first. This should be within the safety limits of the seat, and the safest thing to do, since the answer from chicco doesn't really tell me much...

Mom_In_SA · Nov 18, 2013

Oh, and I did email back, stating that I actually asked about the shell height LIMIT, as in how far away from the top of the shell can my daughter's head be before she will have outgrown the seat.. however I think I was misunderstood again

Here is the response:

"The kg’s is a guide for the parent. This seat is to be used from birth to 18kg’s. I would recommend buying a larger seat (booster seat) for the child once his or her head reaches the top of the seat."

So I am just going to stick with harness slots at shoulder height/head within 1" of the top of the shell as a limit.

Rearfacing only harness slots?

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