The Radian fiasco continues.

I've finally figured out how to get photobucket to work, so I can finally post the photos of my cracked seat. The cracks are on the interior portion of the seat where the adjuster strap runs through. WHen my dd sits in the seat, this area collapses under her and pinches the strap, making it very hard to tighten. I can't get pics of what is happenning becuase you can only see this area with the seat folded, but I put a ball of clay in the path, and set her in the seat. When I took her out, the ball of clay had been squished flat.

http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/safeinthecar/

And here is the email regarding this that has been sent between Russ and I. I've already posted about the phone conversations.

I agree, the seat bottom should not be capable of so much deflection. However,
it IS. There is no way for me to take a picture of it collapsing, because if I
set my child in the seat, which causes it to collapse, you can no longer see
the seat bottom because the child's bottom is on the way of the picture. Let
me see if I can explain it better. When my child is not in the seat the seating
area looks perfectly normal. When she sits in it, the whole seat flexes under
her bum and changes shape. It's similar to what you would see if you where to
squeeze a gallon milk container. When the seating area of the Radian sinks
under my daughter, she is tilted over onto one hip. Her weight is no longer
distributed.

I will allow that it is possible I have knelt in that same spot during
installation, and that the EPS foam *could* have been compressed by me without
realizing it. However, I don't understand how a seat could be cracking, and
without having an explanation for how such cracking could occur, you are able
to determine that the seat is safe to use. I would please like a more detailed
answer. I personally am not comfortable putting my child in the position of
testing out your theory that the seat is safe based on nothing more than your
telling me that you don't know why my seat has cracked. Would you be
comfortable doing so if the situation was reversed?

Kimberly Murphy


Original Message -----------------------
Kimberly,

Thanks for the pictures! OK - Regarding the first few photos: I've not seen
that before and I'm not sure how that could have happened. There is no
stress put on that area of plastic from either the harness strap during
tightening or the seat bottom which is 2.5" above it. In fact, the seat
bottom is not capable of that much downward deflection. Either way, the seat
is fine to use. The harness adjuster strap does not come in contact with
that plastic. It's purpose is to be a threading guide.

Regarding the EPS foam - how can I say this gently...a person's butt can't
do this. The weight distribution is to spread out. More than likely this is
either from a knee in the seat during tightenings, or maybe someone's knee
landing on the seat. Again, either way, the seat is OK to use. The slight
depression in the EPS foam in that area will not at all diminish the
performance of the foam for its purpose.


Thanks for your email and taking the time to ask these detailed questions.
I hope I have answered your questions. More parents should show this same
level of concern about the details of travel safety!

Thanks for choosing a Radian seat!

Best regards,
Russ

------------------------------------
Sunshine Kids
Russ Berger
russ@skjp.com
147 Tower Avenue
Needham, MA 02494
USA
tel: 253-859-5700 ext 240
fax: 305-574-0309
mobile: 617-817-3201
www.skjp.com
------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: safeinthecar@hdiss.net [mailto:safeinthecar@hdiss.net]
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:38 PM
To: Russ Berger
Subject: re: Sunshine Kids

Here re the pics you requested.

The first 3 are of the cracking adjuster strap path.

The 4th is the label

The last two are the seating area of the seat, with the seat folded. You can
see the difference in thickness of the EPS foam on the right and left sides
of the seat, the collasped side of the ESP corresponds with the section of
the seat that is sinking under the weight of my child

Kimberly

Ugh, I would be flaming angry at this point Kimberly. He's totally blowing you off. And how the heck does he KNOW that your seat is safe to use that way??? You definately need to report to NHTSA, and I'd be asking Russ for a document where SKJP assumes all liability if the seat does not perform in a crash. (Not that I'd actually let my child ride in that seat, because I wouldn't, but I'd want him to put it in writing)

So sorry you're dealing with this. I'm sorry they've had people taking advantage for free seats, if that's indeed what was happening, but it's NOT right for him to blow off a defective seat. I was still considering buying a Princess Radian for DD; reading Russ' response to you took care of any indecision I was feeling. We will not be buying a Radian. I really hope you are able to get a good solution, either through SKJP or NHTSA.

I really wish everyone who has had issue with radain... cracking, webbing fraying, buckles to small, ect they need to file with NHTSA so the issues will be looked into more... i do love the radain, but we have had issues with it, and it really worries me b/c i think i will get their booster they are coming out with but wish they would get it together on the radain...

I have reported it to NHTSA. What flames me on this is that I could just take the seat back to the store (will cost me $70 in gas to do so) and get something else, but I was trying to give SKJC a chance to 1. nip a problem in the bud before they get sued, and 2. have a second go at convincing me they are manufactures of quality seats.

It's not like I've had this thing for very long. I just bought it 35 days ago. I only even used it maybe a dozen times. I understand that the cracks are little at this point. But if it does this after 12 rides, what will it do after 1200.

Either way, whether SK replaces the seat or not, I won't use it, and I can't in good conscience sell it. I will be taking it back to Goore,s and getting a different seat, but I had hoped to be able to take a brand new one back. I guess I will end up taking the broken one back and just hope and pray that it does not accidentally get put out on a clearance shelf and resold.

I'm just so bummed.

I'm also stumped on what else to get.

Kimberly

Is there a way you can ship the seat back to the store instead of driving? I'm thinking it would be cheaper than spending the $$ on gas, not to mention the miles on your vehicle.

ZephyrBlue said:

Is there a way you can ship the seat back to the store instead of driving? I'm thinking it would be cheaper than spending the $$ on gas, not to mention the miles on your vehicle.

Click to expand...

I'd still have to ship something new out. Goores doesn't do free shipping and I can only get store credit since it been more than 30 days. It would end up being about the same. Only I'd have to wait and DS would be in a booster during the whole wait time.

Kimberly

Gosh I'm sorry. Did you just get the emails today? I was hoping he was out of the office...but nope he must just be ignoring my emails. And my calls too

Update, I got another email tonight. Apparently he likes to send them out late.

So he sent me this:

Original Message -----------------------
Kimberly,

I understand your concern, so here goes.

The vertical distance from the bottom of the seat pan plastic to the top
of the webbing guide is more than 2". The seat pan plastic will flex
some, as it is designed to do. But, the only possible way the seat pan
plastic could deflect downward enough to contact the top of the guide is
if the supporting metal tabs bend (which will only happen under a severe
load such as a severe car crash) which your photos indicate is not the
case.

The roof of the harness adjuster guide (the area your photos indicate a
crack)is not under any stress from the harness webbing. The purpose of
the circumferential guide is to keep that section of webbing located
properly during folding and unfolding. Because the bottom of the rear
portion of the seat extends lower than the roof of the guide, there is
actually no contact with it from the webbing even during tightening. So
that is why even if there is a slight crack in that piece, it does not
impact the function or safety of the seat.

I understand and appreciate your concern and I hope my explanation
alleviates this. Your seat really is quite safe and its operational
integrity and performance are not at all effected.

Bets regards,
Russ

[ Not part of the emails: I have to say I am done with this seat and this company. I will keep the first Radian I bought because it is too late to return it, and because it is the ONLY option for my low seat back/lapbelt only/no tether spot in my mom's truck, but I am taking the cracked one back tomorrow and getting a Regent. I'm so so mad at this whole situation. I have been saving $ for 3 years to be able to afford this round of seats. I thought I was making a good choice for my money. Turned out to be a pretty expensive mistake. Now I just need to figure out how to get 3 in a row in a Nissan Xterra with a Regent and a Husky.]

I sent this in reply.

Again, I understand your point that this should not be an area that should be under contact with another piece of the seat. However, I can visually observe the base of the seat flexing when my child sits in it. Your explanation also does not explain the original problem that I was trying to solve when I discovered the cracking. When my child sits in the the seat, I have to brace my body against the front seat to tighten the harness. In my opinion this is a sign of a defect in the seat, and I have reported such to NHTSA.

I have been a technician for going on ten years and I have never needed to do this to tighten a harness. I am aware of other people that have contacted you regarding the Radian 80 being extremely difficult to tighten. From what I am have been told, your only explanation to this has been that people are not using the seat correctly. I expect that is what you will be telling me.

I have to say, I'm very disappointed to see a seat on the market that experienced techs are not apparently able to use properly. I was very excited by the features of the Radian 80 and the amount of new technology that was represented in the seat. It really saddens me to see a manufacturer willing to blow off the voices of the consumers and the technical professionals who are in the position to see how the product works in real life on a daily basis.

At this point, I have no choice but to take the seat back to the store and exchange it for another brand of car seat. Despite the fact that doing so will take me most of the day and cost me $70 in gas, I do not have the luxury of waiting now that school has started.

It is my hope that, at some point in the future, I will hear from others that Sunshine Kids is an absolute pleasure to deal with.

Kimberly

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh good one Kimberly!!!

I agree with CRS.. I thought your reply was great.. More people have to stand up and say something when a product isn't right.. I love how he says that the base can't bottom out enough to make it hard to tighten. Basically he's telling you "it can't happen because I said it can't!"

Anyway I also just noticed that my radian base is bowed out as well.. Or rounded anyway.. Oh well in a few weeks it won't matter as it will be RF for the new baby.. I think I'll just install it up right, when DD falls asleep in it her head flops forward anyway "reclined" or not! Oh well she is only in it for 20mins 3 days a week anyway!
BethAnn

Ours is rounded too, I just noticed last night. I've only used the seat FF for a grand total of 5 days and the base is bowing. Not as bad as some of the pics other people have posted, but still disappointing. I was happier with the quality of our $40 Walmart Cosco Scenera (which I gave away because I hated it).

I'm very disappointed in the customer service and the "explanation" of the problem given by Russ. Hopefully all of the NHSTA complaints will force them to take some kind of action.

I'm really sorry you are having such problems with their customer service. I've personally never had an issue. I was given a replacement seat when I e-mailed about the issue with the shallow belt path (fixed in models after Jan'07) and have requested 5 sets of the wider buckle tongues and received them with no issues within 1 - 2 weeks of ordering them.

I think you wrote great e-mails without being over emotional and I'm confused with the responses you got since I've had such great customer service.

:yeahthat:

I agree that your emails to Russ were very calm, cool, and collected, and also very articulate. It's too bad you are having such issues with SK. I have three Radians, and other than my original two having the short straps (which were replaced by SK within a week), I haven't had any issues. I requested new SafeStops and wider buckle tongues and received them promptly.

I do love my Radians simply because there is no base (no head-bumping when DH helps DS in and out of the car) and DS has tons of growing room. I plan to keep using ours (inspecting the plastic shell thoroughly every few months) until there is a recall, or a large majority of techs on here agree there is major flaw.

ETA: Maybe if enough people report their issues with the NHTSA, some form of action will be taken.

bbartlettnfld said:

I agree with CRS.. I thought your reply was great.. More people have to stand up and say something when a product isn't right.. I love how he says that the base can't bottom out enough to make it hard to tighten. Basically he's telling you "it can't happen because I said it can't!"

Anyway I also just noticed that my radian base is bowed out as well.. Or rounded anyway.. Oh well in a few weeks it won't matter as it will be RF for the new baby.. I think I'll just install it up right, when DD falls asleep in it her head flops forward anyway "reclined" or not! Oh well she is only in it for 20mins 3 days a week anyway!
BethAnn

Click to expand...

sorry to butt in here.....but are you meaning DD#2? If her head hits her chest though does it not block off her airway thus causing the baby not to breathe properly. And even if it is only 20minutes, 3 times a day that really shouldn't be an excuse. I am sorry if I misinturpreted wrong. But accidents happen closest to home. I didn't know if you were talking about installing baby number 2 more upright. I just got confussed. Especially if you are using it from birth.

Misty-Bug said:

sorry to butt in here.....but are you meaning DD#2? If her head hits her chest though does it not block off her airway thus causing the baby not to breathe properly. And even if it is only 20minutes, 3 times a day that really shouldn't be an excuse. I am sorry if I misinturpreted wrong. But accidents happen closest to home. I didn't know if you were talking about installing baby number 2 more upright. I just got confussed. Especially if you are using it from birth.

Click to expand...

She's using it FFing for her older dd right now... that is the one whose head flops forward. Soon it will go to the baby for RFing (due in Nov)... no worries, she's a tech.

Here's today's round of emails. I found out why my Radian was having issues finally ( on my own, not through Russ ) details are in the email to Russ I just sent. I ended up taking the seat back today. ( nearly a 7 hr trip with DD#2 along to pick out her new seat ) I just don't trust that SK is going to deal with this in a reasonable amount of time, if at all. I'm also at the point where I don't want to have to deal with them anymore.

Ok here's the email Russ sent to me today.

Kimberly,

I am sorry you are having an issue tightening.
If you would like, I can go through this with you and see if we can
address this.
Please forward to me your seat serial number and DOM (white bar code
sticker on the side of the seat).
Also, in what vehicle are you using the seat and in what location (side
or center).
Does you vehicle seat have an adjustable head rest.
If you want, we start from there and get this resolved for you.

Best regards,
Russ

(Note he is trying to steer me in the direction that I need him to help me figure out how to work the seat, Just like I thought would happen.)

Here is the reply I just sent to him:

My original call was regarding the tightening issue. I told the representative I spoke to at the time ( Becky ) that the harness was nearly impossible to tighten and that my child seemed to be sinking into the seat, causing slack in the harness. In trying to explain what was going on, I happened to fold the Radian and discovered the cracking. I'm sorry all this information was not all passed on to you. This sometimes happens when the responsibility for handling an issue changes hands mid-stream.

I contacted the store I bought the seat at and made sure I could return the seat without worrying that the seat would end up back on the shelf. Once I was assured that was the case, I took the seat back the 200 miles today, so I no longer have it. I had hoped to return the seat to you so you could see what was going on with it, but I have reached the point where I have both lost faith that Sunshine Kids would be willing to rectify the problem, and where I could literally not wait for a replacement. Unfortunately, I felt there was no choice but to spend the majority of my day today returning this seat.

However, If you are interested, I do have some information for you on why this all was happening. Your email yesterday saying the only way for the seat to bottom out like I was saying it did was if the metal brackets were bending prompted me to better examine the brackets. I think you might find my observations interesting. On the left side of the seat ( as the child sits ) there is a missing a rivet that should be there to hold the bracket in place. Without this rivet the metal bracket had moved out of position ( supporting the seat pan ) and was now located on top of the seat pan. With no supporting structure, the seat pan was able to sink in on the left hand side until it was resting on the top of the adjuster guide. The right hand rivet was still in place. In addition, I was able to confirm the usual placement of a rivet on the left hand side by comparing it to my other Radian.

I sincerely hope you find this information useful. I also hope that in the future you are able to find a better way of addressing the need to weed out customers with legitimate problems from those needing further information on correct child seat usage and function.

Kimberly


FWIW, I am continuing to use my other Radian. I will also continue to recommend the Radian to those whose needs can best be met by it. However, I will also make sure to inform people of the need to purchase the seat from a retailer who has a good return policy, and to check the seat carefully multiple times for issues before the return time frame is up, as returning a defective seat to the manufacturer is difficult if not impossible at present. Hopefully, Russ has learned something about paying attention to customer feedback from this experience, and other people will not have the same difficulty. I don't think he intends to come across the way he has to me, and I don't think he just doesn't care. But I do think he has a little too much invested in this seat emotionally to deal objectively with the idea that his "baby" is flawed.

I've been trying to follow your posts about this because I have a March 07 Radian and just installed a May 07 Princess for 9 mos old. It is extremely hard to tighten as well and took a good deal of muscle for me to get it tightened down on her properly. So far it hasn't loosened but I've been watching for it. Is there something you could tell me to look for that I can keep an eye on? I'd be devastated if there is a flaw with this seat and I have my DD in it. Thank you. I'm so sorry he is treating you so badly. You obviously know what you are talking about and as the consumer he should take you seriously.

My final email from Russ.

Kimberly,

I am sorry for the miscommunication. I think had all of this been more
clear, it could have been resolved more easily.
I have made note of this situation and it will be discussed.

Best regards,
Russ

While I'm glad to be done with this issue personally for now, I'm disappointed that he didn't even ask me what store I had returned it to so that he could contact them about getting ahold of that seat.

Kimberly

Frenchie said:

I've been trying to follow your posts about this because I have a March 07 Radian and just installed a May 07 Princess for 9 mos old. It is extremely hard to tighten as well and took a good deal of muscle for me to get it tightened down on her properly. So far it hasn't loosened but I've been watching for it. Is there something you could tell me to look for that I can keep an eye on? I'd be devastated if there is a flaw with this seat and I have my DD in it. Thank you. I'm so sorry he is treating you so badly. You obviously know what you are talking about and as the consumer he should take you seriously.

Click to expand...

Hi Frenchie,

After using the May 07 Princess Radian a few times, it became incredibly hard to tighten the harness. I had to go to the front seat, sit backward, and brace my body against the front seat in order to pull it tight enough. I also found that when I would look at DD a few minutes later, there would be a lot of slack in the harness. I could then tighten it another 2-3 inches. I marked the adjuster strap to see if it was slipping and it wasn't. DD also conplained that the seat made her sit crooked. I tried reinstalling in a different location and the same problems happened. During a discussion with SK I folded the seat and found the cracks in my pics. I also put the seat on the counter with DD sitting in it. When I did that I could clearly see that when she sat in it the seat bottom warped. WHen Russ sent the email about the metal brackets I went to look at the brackets specifically and found a missing rivet. I returned the broken Radian so I can't take any pics ( batteries went dead in camera when I tried to take pics at the store before I returned it ) I will go get more batteries tomorrow and take pics of the rivets in my other Radian so you know what to look for.

HTH,
Kimberly

Misty-Bug:

Don't worry the seat is at present being used FF for my 4.5 yr old.. Its her floppy head that flops forward, at most it causes her to snore, and me to worry as it looks totally uncomfortable. I stopped using it as her main seat (she is back in the MA and will be till she outgrows it). I only use the Radian for her in my drivers car and soon she'll be on the bus so then I will install it RF for baby #2 due in November.. So don't worry about airway issues...

BethAnn