Help me convince her that seatbelt AND LATCH isn't "safer"

waterbaby

New member
What info does anyone have handy that I can pass along?

She currently has convertible seat RF in middle bench seat with the belt and has also connected LATCH to the outboard seat anchors.
Aside from voiding warranties going against manufacturer's instructions... what can I tell her?
 
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trailrunnermom

New member
This is from the NHTSA:
"3Q. Do I need to use the vehicle seat belt along with LATCH to install my child safety seat?

A. No. The safety standard does not require that both systems be used together. Child restraints are tested to ensure compliance with Federal safety standards when (1) attached to a vehicle using the LATCH system, and (2) attached using the vehicle belt system without LATCH. The LATCH system was designed to make child safety seat installation easier, without using seat belts."

Basically, carseats aren't crash-tested using both systems together. Our neighbor had done the same thing, so I asked the CPS tech at our local fire station. He said that using both systems could prevent the seat from being able to "ride down" the force from a crash, thereby transferring that force to the child. Seatbelts or LATCH belts are designed to stretch slightly to help absorb the impact; using both of them together could prevent them from doing the job they're designed to do.

I hope this helps. If you know where they do seat checks in your area, you could nicely mention that she could have it checked there to see if it's okay. :)
 

Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member
Depending on which carseat and which vehicle she has, a center lower LATCH anchor installation might also be prohibited by the seat and vehicle manufacturers altogether, not even taking into account the misuse of lower anchors and seatbelt simultaneously. :twocents:
 

waterbaby

New member
She's in a 2003 Toyota 4Runner and says she does not have LATCH in the middle bench seat (where the carseat is now). I think it's a Marathon he's in, but I'd have to double check.

And that's exactly what I told her re: the PP. If the carseat is cemented to the car, her kid will be the one taking the force of the crash, as opposed to the seat. She said (finally!) that she's going to unhook the LATCH and just use the belt. I hope she does.
 

southpawboston

New member
If the carseat is cemented to the car, her kid will be the one taking the force of the crash, as opposed to the seat.

regarding this specific point, then how do you explain why rigid LATCH (ISOFIX) is considered a good thing? you can't get more cemented then that. yes, it allows a small amount of rotation, but i doubt it offers more than LATCH + seatbelt combined when you take into account webbing stretching. plus, some ISOFIX seats also have a front foot which extends down to the floor to eliminate rotation. so therefore you really do have a cemented seat. i thought this was a good thing?

i just can't understand why so many techs use the ride-down card when trying to explain why LATCH + belt is bad. i understand it's bad, but i don't believe it is for that specific reason.
 

southpawboston

New member
This is from the NHTSA:
"3Q. Do I need to use the vehicle seat belt along with LATCH to install my child safety seat?

A. No. The safety standard does not require that both systems be used together. Child restraints are tested to ensure compliance with Federal safety standards when (1) attached to a vehicle using the LATCH system, and (2) attached using the vehicle belt system without LATCH. The LATCH system was designed to make child safety seat installation easier, without using seat belts."

geeze, from NHTSA's wording, you could ALMOST come away with the interpretation that it's okay to do both...
 

Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member
She's in a 2003 Toyota 4Runner and says she does not have LATCH in the middle bench seat (where the carseat is now). I think it's a Marathon he's in, but I'd have to double check.

And that's exactly what I told her re: the PP. If the carseat is cemented to the car, her kid will be the one taking the force of the crash, as opposed to the seat. She said (finally!) that she's going to unhook the LATCH and just use the belt. I hope she does.

I hope so, too. Toyota doesn't allow borrowing of the outboard lower anchors to do a center LATCH installation so the seatbelt is the only appropriate installation method for the center position at all. Good luck, and yayy again for convincing her. :thumbsup:
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Some of the highest up people in the carseat world are sort of toying with the idea of getting use of both approved in some fashion... if it's not injurious, then we might as well change the rules so that it fits more with parents' interpretations of what's safe, rather than keep telling parents it's bad, even if it's not bad... (like leaving infant seat handles up...rather than keep making people wrong for leaving them up, they just reinforced them and changed the rules so it's perfectly ok on most seats).

I wouldn't recommend it, of course, given that probably both manuals discourage use of both simultaneously, but it's not going to give me a heart attack like other gross misuses do... :twocents:

I mean, I'm not saying don't tell her not to... she SHOULD follow the manual, and doing both is not best practice, but if she doesn't undo one system, don't worry too much about that kid :)
 

singingpond

New member
Some of the highest up people in the carseat world are sort of toying with the idea of getting use of both approved in some fashion... if it's not injurious, then we might as well change the rules so that it fits more with parents' interpretations of what's safe, rather than keep telling parents it's bad, even if it's not bad... (like leaving infant seat handles up...rather than keep making people wrong for leaving them up, they just reinforced them and changed the rules so it's perfectly ok on most seats).

I wouldn't recommend it, of course, given that probably both manuals discourage use of both simultaneously, but it's not going to give me a heart attack like other gross misuses do... :twocents:

I mean, I'm not saying don't tell her not to... she SHOULD follow the manual, and doing both is not best practice, but if she doesn't undo one system, don't worry too much about that kid :)

Interesting comments.... I personally wouldn't use the two systems together, but ONLY because they apparently have not been tested together. (Oh, and because all our vehicles are too old to have LATCH, so I can't be tempted, LOL.)

All the talk about 'interfering with proper ride-down' always strikes me as nice-sounding verbiage, with no real-world data behind it. Often it's presented as something like "I asked the local fire chief, and he says using both together would interfere with ride down in a crash...". Honestly, what is the local fire dep't head likely to know about this topic? Speaking for myself, I get irritated when people throw around authoritative sounding statements like this, with no apparent data behind them.

If the combination of the two systems were tested, would it have to be tested in each vehicle independently? Since the relative positions of the seatbelts and the LATCH anchors may vary from vehicle to vehicle? This is the one thing that struck me when I looked at my parents' newer vehicle with LATCH, to see what LATCH anchors actually look like -- the outboard LATCH position can be pretty far offset from the outboard seatbelt position, so which position do you put the carseat in anyway if you were to use both attachment methods? Wouldn't this offset sort of ensure that either the seatbelt or the LATCH strap (or both) would be too loose, or incorrectly positioned?

Katrin
 

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