Really discouraging encounter at a firehouse

J in the Lou · May 29, 2013

My 7 year old is in a Graco Nautilus, using the harness. I recently realized I needed to switch the install from LATCH to a seatbelt, because he had hit 48 pounds (never noticed that part of the manual before).

I put it in, but I thought the seatbelt install was looser than the LATCH. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the seatbelt to retract any tighter. I decided to take it over to the local firehouse, and see if someone there would tell me if it was okay.

They guy who came out first asked how old my DS was. When I told him "7" he replied "And he's still in a harness?!?!?" in a manner that indicated I was crazy. Then he told me he had never heard of a 7 year old in a harness before.

He barely even looked at the seat, and just said "Yeah, it's fine." Then he asked if I wanted him to look at our other DS's seat. He is 4.5 and rearfacing. We got the same kind of reaction.

It really discouraged me that someone who sees kids getting hurt would react this way.

So, I'm still unsure of the install, and feeling like the people who should be promoting keeping kids in harnesses and rearfacing are judging me. It was a discouraging visit.

LISmama810 · May 29, 2013

I'm sorry you didn't have a good experience

Are you sure the person you saw was a certified CPST? Some fire fighters are, but the vast majority are not. Of those who aren't, most know no more than anyone else (and sometimes even less if they don't have kids of their own and/or haven't installed a seat in a long time). Because they're firefighters, they're used to helping people, so they often won't turn people away, and most of them have no idea how much they DON'T know, so they see no harm in "helping."

Even when firefighters, police, etc. are CPSTs, the demands of their other duties often keep them from staying up-to-date on the latest technology and recommendations for car seats.

You can find local CPSTs here: http://cert.safekids.org/Home/SeatCheckLocations.aspx

Techs from this board are usually very knowledgable, and a list can be found here: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=59135

If you want to post photos or more information, we can probably help you with your seat questions here, too.

nannykates · May 29, 2013

I'm sorry you had a bad experience but want to welcome you to cs.o!

Unfortunately there are some less than stellar cpsts out there. Some people have to do it for their job and aren't as passionate as people on this board tend to be.

Feel free to post pictures and we can help you out. If it moves less than 1 in at the belt path the installation is acceptable. It can be unnerving when you are used to a rock solid install to have one that shifts a bit, but it really is ok. Just make sure the seat is not outgrown by height either (shoulders over top slots) and top tethered.

Congratulations on your extended rear facing and harnessing. It sounds like you have done your research into keeping your kids safe in the car!

Eta-cross posted!

sm1982 · May 29, 2013

I'm friends with a firefighter and you wouldn't believe the way his kids are buckled up. It's scary! I wouldn't trust a firefighter or police officer just because they held that title.

Have you tried pulling back the car seat cover while installing? I have the same seat and found that made it easier for me to pull all the slack out of the seat belt. I also get it as tight as possible while buckled, then unbuckle and let it in a couple more clicks before re-buckling.

J in the Lou · May 29, 2013

LISmama810 said:
Are you sure the person you saw was a certified CPST?

Honestly, I don't know. I went to two firehouses, and the first one said they have a tech at the other one. When I went there, the guy who answered the door said he could check it, so I assumed he was the tech. :shrug-shoulders: I guess I should have asked, but didn't think of it.

LISmama810 said:
You can find local CPSTs here:

Techs from this board are usually very knowledgable, and a list can be found here:

There were two listed in my city. One at the firehouse I visited, and another at a hospital. I will email the one at the hospital.

Unfortunately, no one on the board list appears to be in my state.

LISmama810 said:
If you want to post photos or more information, we can probably help you with your seat questions here, too.

I may do that, but I would really like someone who can yank on it, look at it, etc to view it if possible. But if I cannot meet with this other person, I will do that. I really need a pair of experienced eyes to tell me if it is okay! Thank you for the help.

J in the Lou · May 29, 2013

nannykates said:
I'm sorry you had a bad experience but want to welcome you to cs.o!

Thank you!

nannykates said:
If it moves less than 1 in at the belt path the installation is acceptable. It can be unnerving when you are used to a rock solid install to have one that shifts a bit, but it really is ok. Just make sure the seat is not outgrown by height either (shoulders over top slots) and top tethered.

It *is* unnerving! That is why I wanted someone else to look at it. There is a part of me that is saying "You crawled into that seat, yanked on the seatbelt to the point where your hands hurt, and it is as tight as it is ever going to go." Then there is the part of me that says "But it still moves!!!"

He is now at the top harness position, but it is above his shoulders still. I do have it tethered, and was able to get that done very tightly, although it took a bit of manipulation of the carseat headrest and the vehicle headrest. I routed it under the vehicle headrest (thought the padding on the headrest might compress during a crash, and not hold it as tight), and had to raise the carseat headrest to the highest position to access the tether strap to tighten it.

nannykates said:
Congratulations on your extended rear facing and harnessing. It sounds like you have done your research into keeping your kids safe in the car!

Thanks - it was really a process. Though I have not posted here before (thought I had, but apparently not, judging by my post count) I have been lurking/reading the site for YEARS. My oldest was less than 1 when someone first mentioned extended rear facing. My initial thought was "You're smokin' crack!" But I read the information they presented. Then read a couple of studies. Then watched the crash dummy videos. I think that is what cinched it for me.

DS1 was kept rearfacing until he was 3.5 and hit 33 pounds (Britax Decathalon at that time). When DS2 outgrew the infant seat, I ditched the Decathalons (never liked them, always had trouble getting the harness tight) and got DS1 the Nautilus and we got DS2 a My Ride 65 specifically because it had the 40 pound rear facing limit. He is 32 pounds and 40 inches at 4.5, so he could probably stay rearfacing until he is 6 or so. If you could travel back in time and tell the me of 7 years ago I would be doing this, I would have called you crazy. But, know better, do better, right?

J in the Lou · May 29, 2013

sm1982 said:
I'm friends with a firefighter and you wouldn't believe the way his kids are buckled up. It's scary! I wouldn't trust a firefighter or police officer just because they held that title.

That is really unfortunate. Every time I see/hear about an accident that a child was injured in, it makes me want to keep them in carseats forever. I guess if you see something all the time, you can become jaded against it. Come to think of it, I know a few cops who don't wear their seatbelts while driving, either. Guess it isn't that uncommon.

sm1982 said:
Have you tried pulling back the car seat cover while installing? I have the same seat and found that made it easier for me to pull all the slack out of the seat belt. I also get it as tight as possible while buckled, then unbuckle and let it in a couple more clicks before re-buckling.

I have not tried that - thanks for the tip. I'll give it a go tonight. I did have problems trying to thread the seatbelt through. I couldn't reach around the seat to grab the other end, and wasn't sure if it was getting tangled up in the LATCH straps. I would have liked it if they had put the storage bars somewhere else - they seem to be in the way where they are now. Pulling the cover back seems like such a simple solution to those issues - but I didn't think of it. Thank you for suggesting it!

nannykates · May 29, 2013

Is the belt folded in the latch plate? That's what gets me all-the-time. Ill think its tight then grab it and it moves then I see the belt folded up stoping it from tightening anymore. My other nautilus specific trick (probably wrong for some reason) is to put one knee on each arm rest and wiggle it side to side while pulling the slack out of the lap belt with one hand and feeding it into the retractor with the other. (I am a small human so sometimes have to be creative with leverage)

J in the Lou · May 29, 2013

nannykates said:
Is the belt folded in the latch plate? That's what gets me all-the-time. Ill think its tight then grab it and it moves then I see the belt folded up stoping it from tightening anymore. My other nautilus specific trick (probably wrong for some reason) is to put one knee on each arm rest and wiggle it side to side while pulling the slack out of the lap belt with one hand and feeding it into the retractor with the other. (I am a small human so sometimes have to be creative with leverage)

I will check for that - thanks for the tip. I barely fit with putting a knee in the bottom of the seat - I don't think there is any possible way for me to fold myself up to get one knee on each armrest! Plus, I am not the most coordinated person in the world - I would probably fall off!!

morninglori · May 29, 2013

Another tip would be to push down and back into the vehicle seat while tightening the seatbelt through the opening when you pull the cover back. I get in and stand to the side of the seat, and use my knee to push against the front of the nautilus back into the vehicle seat while one hand pushes down and the other pulls the belt.

Athena · May 29, 2013

I'm so sorry that happened to you. t sounds like you're doing an amazing job keeping your kids safe and they should have complimented you, not tried to embarrass you.

I don't think having a 7 year old harnessed is odd at all. My almost 7 year old is harnessed and loves it and she will still be harnessed after her 7th birthday.

J in the Lou said:
I do have it tethered, and was able to get that done very tightly, although it took a bit of manipulation of the carseat headrest and the vehicle headrest. I routed it under the vehicle headrest (thought the padding on the headrest might compress during a crash, and not hold it as tight), and had to raise the carseat headrest to the highest position to access the tether strap to tighten it.

Did you check your vehicle manual? FYI: I recently discovered that ours instructs the user to remove the vehicle head rest when using the tether. I don't know how common that is and only recently discovered it

, but I've always had to remove ours for forward facing seats anyway because it sticks too far forward, so luckily I had done this right without realizing.

It sounds like it likely is tight enough. I've done that so many times, thinking this seat will move, so I need to get it tighter. But after reading here that you want to test it with your non dominant hand because you can move any install if you push hard enough and you don't need to push that hard to make sure it's okay, I've tried to lighten up a bit about it.

Best of luck!

J in the Lou · May 29, 2013

Athena said:
I'm so sorry that happened to you. t sounds like you're doing an amazing job keeping your kids safe and they should have complimented you, not tried to embarrass you.

It sort of made me feel like he thought I was wrapping my kids in bubble wrap at all times, and bleaching the table and rewashing the silverware at restaurants. I try and hit this and water safety. Other stuff, not so much. Eating a little dirt and getting some bumps and bruises is how they will learn, IMO. I just felt a bit like a freak after leaving the firehouse.

Athena said:
Did you check your vehicle manual? FYI: I recently discovered that ours instructs the user to remove the vehicle head rest when using the tether. I don't know how common that is and only recently discovered it , but I've always had to remove ours for forward facing seats anyway because it sticks too far forward, so luckily I had done this right without realizing.

No, I didn't. Thanks for point out that might be needed. I could see that for my vehicle (Subaru Outback - tethers are in the ceiling). My DH's car (Sonata Hybrid) it is directly behind the headrest - so I would hazard a guess that it is more likely to be okay routed under the headrest. I will pull out both manuals tonight and check them.

Athena said:
It sounds like it likely is tight enough. I've done that so many times, thinking this seat will move, so I need to get it tighter. But after reading here that you want to test it with your non dominant hand because you can move any install if you push hard enough and you don't need to push that hard to make sure it's okay, I've tried to lighten up a bit about it. Best of luck!

I have never heard that about the dominant hand before. With the LATCH install, I could yank on that thing with both hands and it wouldn't budge a bit. I probably am being paranoid, but I know a huge number of carseats are installed incorrectly, and I just don't want to be one of them.

I emailed the tech listed on one of the first posts, and hopefully she will be able to meet with me to verify it is okay, or educate me on what I did wrong.

Athena · May 29, 2013

J in the Lou said:
I could see that for my vehicle (Subaru Outback - tethers are in the ceiling).

Yep, we have a Subaru with ceiling tethers, so I'd bet yours has the same instruction as ours. You must have a different year because with our vehicle head rests, there's no way to install a FFing seat without the vehicle head rest pushing it way forward, leaving a huge gap. The Nauti allows you to take it off, so you should be fine without it. I hope that helps!

J in the Lou · May 29, 2013

Athena said:
Yep, we have a Subaru with ceiling tethers, so I'd bet yours has the same instruction as ours. You must have a different year because with our vehicle head rests, there's no way to install a FFing seat without the vehicle head rest pushing it way forward, leaving a huge gap. The Nauti allows you to take it off, so you should be fine without it. I hope that helps!

I have a '12 Outback. The headrest bulged out a tad, but nothing that I thought was massive - just cushy like the rest of the seats.

I checked my manual, and indeed, I was supposed to remove the headrest. I have been driving him around for a year with it installed incorrectly! Ugh!

I removed the headrest, and peeled back the cover. Being able to pull the belt right past the latch plate got it a tad tighter. Plus, removing the headrest really seemed to secure the tether better.

I am happy to report it is now as rock solidly installed as it was with LATCH. It doesn't move at all even when I yank with both hands. I still plan on having someone who knows what they are doing check it, but until that happens I feel pretty comfortable that he is safe in it.

Thank you, everyone, for your help! It is greatly appreciated.

Athena · May 30, 2013

Please don't feel bad about it. I only noticed it recently myself. It's really hard to be perfect. If they made these things easier, wrote the manuals better instead of distracting us with the same annoying warnings over and over, maybe we could all be perfect, but until then, it sounds like you're doing great!

AK Dad · Jun 6, 2013

J in the Lou said:
It really discouraged me that someone who sees kids getting hurt would react this way.

Sounds a lot like my experience!
http://carseatblog.com/21801/guest-blog-whats-your-motivation/

AngB · Jun 7, 2013

By in the 'Lou do you by any chance mean St.Louis? Because it sounds very similar to one of my friend's firefighter experience. She was actually told that it is "dangerous" to rearface kids who are taller (and the kid in question is not that tall, at all), etc. , and I'm pretty sure it was the CPST who told her that. (He gave us some inaccurate information about how our Snugride 30 handle "had" to be down when it's in the car, or something like that, when that hadn't been the case with snugrides in several years.)I definitely won't even bother taking them back there.

J in the Lou · Jun 17, 2013

AK Dad said:
Sounds a lot like my experience!
http://carseatblog.com/21801/guest-blog-whats-your-motivation/

Yes - our experiences were similiar! I loved this part of your article: "...I have a theory that while the CPS community does an excellent job of reaching out to the most at-risk demographics, a large segment of the population would use best practice if only the guidance were clear, concise, and unified."

I can't tell you how many times people will tell me "My pediatrician said it was okay to turn him at 1". I really think if parents were getting the same message from all people in positions of authority, lives would be saved.

J in the Lou · Jun 17, 2013

AngB said:
By in the 'Lou do you by any chance mean St.Louis? Because it sounds very similar to one of my friend's firefighter experience. She was actually told that it is "dangerous" to rearface kids who are taller (and the kid in question is not that tall, at all), etc. , and I'm pretty sure it was the CPST who told her that. (He gave us some inaccurate information about how our Snugride 30 handle "had" to be down when it's in the car, or something like that, when that hadn't been the case with snugrides in several years.)I definitely won't even bother taking them back there.

So, where'd you go to high school?

(in-joke for non-St. Louisians). This was actually in St. Charles (St. Louis suburbs, for non-locals).

I hate hearing that this is the norm in St. Louis. It seems there is lots of room for improvement in the safety advice in our communities.

trippsmom · Jun 17, 2013

J in the Lou said:
Yes - our experiences were similiar! I loved this part of your article: "...I have a theory that while the CPS community does an excellent job of reaching out to the most at-risk demographics, a large segment of the population would use best practice if only the guidance were clear, concise, and unified."

I can't tell you how many times people will tell me "My pediatrician said it was okay to turn him at 1". I really think if parents were getting the same message from all people in positions of authority, lives would be saved.

Agreed. I am always battling the ped or the law.

Really discouraging encounter at a firehouse

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