Frontier 85 in '12 Odyssey middle middle seat: top tether goes around sides of seat back?

I'm trying to install a Britax Frontier 85 in the center row middle seat of a '12 Odyssey. I'm using the short belt path, which seems to work ok, but because the back of the Odyssey's seat is so narrow the top tether strap wants to go around the sides of the seat rather than over the top (the anchor point is on the back of the seat, near the bottom). This definitely reduces the mechanical advantage of the tether strap compared to having it go over the top of the seat back but it still clearly provides some restraint and I don't know what else to do. Is this a problem or am I ok?

Page 64 of your Odyssey manual indicates that the headrest should be raised and the tether should be routed in between the headrest posts. Routing the tether under the headrest will prevent part of it from slipping into the crack

Thanks, but I'm not completely sure that is a good solution here:

1. The Odyssey manual shows a single tether strap that goes right down the middle of the seat and never actually touches the headrest posts. With the V-shaped Britax Versa-Tether, the tether straps naturally go far outside of the headrest posts. If I force the tether to go between the posts, the tether straps will be exerting a sideways force on the posts (especially during a crash) which I have no reason to believe they are designed for.

2. I removed the headrest because I think, even at its highest setting, it will interfere with the Frontier (but I will check to make sure that's true.

I would route it through the headrest like your manual suggests, or install in an outboard location instead.

Sort of butting in: I have a different Britax seat (Marathon) installed FF in that same position. The tether is snug over the top of the seat, but near the outer edges. I'm not sure if the tethers are made differently on the Marathon and Frontier. I also removed the head rest because it interfered with the child seat angle. Should I install the child seat with the head rest pushing it forward a little at the top (so I can route the tether strap through the head rest), or is my install ok? I have seen the manual page describing the top tether, but it does indicate a child seat with a singluar tether strap. I guess I feel my situation is similar to OP, so I wanted more input here. Thanks!

maramarrie said:

Sort of butting in: I have a different Britax seat (Marathon) installed FF in that same position. The tether is snug over the top of the seat, but near the outer edges. I'm not sure if the tethers are made differently on the Marathon and Frontier. I also removed the head rest because it interfered with the child seat angle. Should I install the child seat with the head rest pushing it forward a little at the top (so I can route the tether strap through the head rest), or is my install ok? I have seen the manual page describing the top tether, but it does indicate a child seat with a singluar tether strap. I guess I feel my situation is similar to OP, so I wanted more input here. Thanks!

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I think that because the Frontier is a good bit taller than the Marathon, her tether strap may be coming from higher up? I think as long as your tether is snug it's probably fine.

It has been a while but in case anybody else runs into this question I thought I'd share what I've found:

I took our van to a police station to be inspected. The inspector said it was fine to have the top versatether straps going around the sides of the second row middle seat. This is clearly not perfect, but I think the officer is right that it's the best we can do. (From a physics point of view it might be better to use a top tether extension strap which would allow me to shorten the versatether, turning the top tether into a Y shape rather than a V, which would then go over the top of the seat and would have much more mechanical advantage in preventing the seat from tilting forward. But as far as I can tell these straps are not approved for use or sold in the US, I have only seen them for sale on websites in Australia and New Zealand.)

I don't think it's possible to get a great install with the seat belt in the center seat, but it's good enough. I suspect the Frontier 90 might be better, but at the same time I wonder if a seat with a single top tether strap might be a good idea for a seat with a very narrow back like this one.

I want to emphasize that I think it's a bad idea to put the V-shaped versatether through the headrest supports because the straps would exert sideways force (a LOT of force in a crash) on the headrest posts which are not designed for that load. I know the Odyssey manual says to put the top tether between the headrest posts, but it is clearly talking about a single strap system that will not be pushing on the headrest posts. I am not a certified carseat guru but every fiber of my physicist/engineer being says that headrest posts are not supposed to interact with car seat straps and that this is a clear example of an instruction manual that does not cover all possible situations.

Canadian curriculum instructs that in the case of a V-shaped tether, and where the vehicle manual doesn't address that shape, one is to route the tether in whatever manner allows it to lay in a straight line, so that would NOT be between the posts but to either side -- I don't know what the US curriculum teaches. However, if you're getting slipping off the sides of the vehicle seat because of it, I'm not comfortable with that and would consider it incompatible in that seating position; I would ask Britax what they think and have them give the approval on it. Changing the angle relative to the car seat's shell at which the versa-tether is being stressed is going to potentially cause the seat to not perform as designed. Please don't guess, ask them, they're the experts on their own seat.

Pixelated said:

Canadian curriculum instructs that in the case of a V-shaped tether, and where the vehicle manual doesn't address that shape, one is to route the tether in whatever manner allows it to lay in a straight line, so that would NOT be between the posts but to either side -- I don't know what the US curriculum teaches.

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This (I mean the Canadian curriculum) makes a lot of sense to me.

At the very least I would ask Britax what they think and have them give the approval on it. Changing the angle relative to the car seat's shell at which the versa-tether is being stressed is going to potentially cause the seat to not perform as designed. Please don't guess, ask them, they're the experts on their own seat.

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I forgot to mention: I called Britax and I was unable to make the rep I was talking to understand the situation -- that the center seat back is narrow so the versatether goes around the sides of the seat back rather than over the top. I was rather appalled that a Britax customer service rep was completely unfamiliar with a very common family vehicle, and even if she has never seen an Odyssey it's really not that hard to comprehend. All I could get her to tell me was that I should follow the car's owner's manual, which is (in my opinion) of no help in this situation because it is based on a single tether strap. So at that point I gave up on Britax for advice and got my installation inspected instead.

Do you have a photo? You could ask a Britax tech. If you want to post the picture here I'd be happy to follow up.

Pixelated said:

If you want to post the picture here I'd be happy to follow up.

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Thank you very much, that would be helpful. Here are two photos, from the side and back. I have two identical Frontier 85s, so you can see the difference in the tethers between the middle and outboard seats. Both are installed with the long belt path.

I just revisited this very informative post, which I read before I bought these seats: http://carseatblog.com/8090/2011-ho...ids-carseats-review-with-tons-of-pics-videos/

I noticed that there is a photo showing the tether of a Frontier (not sure if it's an 80 or 85) in the center seat, which I don't think I saw before. They installed it with the tether going over the back of the seat, very close to the edges. In my opinion these straps could easily slip off of the seat, especially in an accident, and if they did the tether would immediately become very loose and therefore useless.

I would encourage you to send those photos to Britax and request that a tech look at them and get back to you. The initial feedback I got was to route the tether between the posts, with the head restraint turned backward. I'm not sure what Honda would say about that, so I'll leave it to you to follow up.

If you and I met at a check I wouldn't be comfortable with it as-is, and would encourage you to use a different seating position.

Pixelated said:

I would encourage you to send those photos to Britax and request that a tech look at them and get back to you. The initial feedback I got was to route the tether between the posts, with the head restraint turned backward. I'm not sure what Honda would say about that, so I'll leave it to you to follow up.

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I will do that, and I appreciate your advice very much.

The headrest posts are actually curved, so it is not possible to install the headrest backwards.

One possible solution would be to move this seat to our other car (which currently has no seats in it but that is becoming inconvenient) and get something else for this position in the Odyssey. If we go that route I would be glad to hear of any suggestions for good seats for the Odyssey's middle middle seat. (as an aside, the Frontier 85's long belt path install in this seat is acceptable but not fantastic; I think the Frontier 90 would improve the seat belt part of the install significantly but presumably the top tether issue would be the same). My daughter is tall (almost 6 yrs and almost 48" tall, about 50 lbs.), so the tall height limit in harness mode is a plus for the Frontier. We are trying to keep all 3 kids in the second row, and it's very nice to have the oldest one who can buckle herself in in the middle seat, so we would rather not use a different seating position.

Thank you again!

I got a response from Britax about this, which I copy in full below for others who may be in the same situation. I also include two photos they sent me. Thanks for all the help, and hopefully this information will help someone else.

In summary: my installation is ok as long as the child weighs less than 65 pounds, which is the weight up to which the carseatblog.com Frontier 85 review says the top tether is optional. (I couldn't find this information in the user guide, I wish they would put these fun details in there!)

I'm going to keep things as-is for now, until my daughter is 65 pounds, and then do something else which I haven't quite decided on yet. If the growth charts are to be believed, she might be close to outgrowing harness mode by height by then anyway. Not sure how excited I would be about option "B" below (second photo).

Emails to/from Britax below:

On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 3:08 PM, US-customer service <US-customerservice@britax.com> wrote:

We wanted to confer with our CPS Advocate Manager about the different installs and fits. Please find below their response to the situation at hand.

You can:

A. Put the vehicle head restraint on backwards OR raise it (as in picture attached) so it doesn’t push Frontier forward and put tether between head restraint posts so it stays up on vehicle seat back.

B. See 2nd photo I have attached. Pull tether up on top of vehicle seat back and remove slack. Then take the excess length of tether and wrap around the “V” of the tether 3 or 4 times and loop around. It keeps it up on the vehicle seta back.

C. If they cannot figure out how to do either of these methods – under 65 lbs. in harness mode they are okay where they are. Over 65 lbs. in harness mode they must find another seating position to use in harness mode OR convert to booster mode.


From: me to Britax
Subject: Re: Britax tether/ TT

Thank you for your response. I wonder if I could ask you for some further clarification, though, as I do not think that the solution you suggest will work. The car's headrest interferes with the Frontier 85 and so must be removed (it is not possible to turn the headrest around to eliminate the interference because the headrest legs are curved and will only go in one way). Could you please advise me on one of the following possibilities (or another if I you think I have missed something)?

1. My current installation is acceptable up to the harness mode weight limit (85 pounds).

2. My current installation is acceptable for children weighing less than 65 pounds which is the weight at which the top tether becomes required for harness mode seat belt installations (please correct me if I am wrong -- I read this in the carseatblog.com review of the Frontier 85 but can't find it in my user guide. The user guide only seems to say that using the top tether is always recommended).

3. My current installation is not acceptable, but would be acceptable for children weighing less than 65 pounds if I did not use the top tether at all. Note that this would mean that my tether installation is worse than not using the tether at all, which seems rather nonsensical.

4. My current installation is not acceptable, but you can suggest a different installation for the top tether which does not involve the vehicle headrest.

5. It is not possible to use the Frontier 85 in harness mode in this seating position.

Even if the vehicle headrest did not interfere with the Frontier 85, I would be concerned about the solution you suggest because the vehicle manual is clearly only considering the typical single-strap top tether which can pass between the headrest legs without pushing on them, not something like the V-shaped Britax tether. Do you have reason to believe that the headrest legs are designed for the significant sideways forces that the Versatether would exert during a crash if the Versatether were routed between the headrest legs as you suggest? Also, by this reasoning, would you also suggest that if installing a Britax seat on the outboard vehicle seats (which are of normal width) the Versatether should pass between the head rest legs rather than following a straight path to the tether anchor, since that is what the vehicle manual says to do (with a single tether strap)? This does not seem at all reasonable to me.

Thank you very much for your help.


On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 10:16 AM, US-customer service <US-customerservice@britax.com> wrote:

Thank you for your recent email. The tether in your vehicle should be routed through the head rest legs as stated in your user guide [by user guide Britax rep is referring to vehicle owner's manual]. Please make the proper corrections to your tether.