Theoretically speaking...

LISmama810 · Mar 22, 2013

This is a spin-off of the Pinnacle thread.

Someone speculated that the seat might not have LATCH. Someone else asked, "Isn't LATCH required?" and someone else answered yes.

But let's say a foward-facing-only seat weighs 35 lbs. And let's say that seat also has a 30-lb minimum to use it. Under the new 2014 rules, the seat has to state a child weight limit at which to stop using LATCH, and that weight, combined with the seat's weight, can't exceed 65 lbs.

So in that case, the label on the seat would have to say not to use LATCH. Does that also mean the seat still has to be equipped with it, per standards? Or could manufacturers just up their minimum weight requirement to get around manufacturing seats with LATCH?

Oh, and doesn't the new rule specify that manufactures can also specify a maximum combined weight lower than 65 lbs?

(FTR, I have no idea if any of this actually applies to the Pinnacle. The other thread just got me thinking.)

canadiangie · Mar 22, 2013

Great minds...

And if this were to happen, would that same seat be sold LUAS'less in Canada?? Cause I know a lot of Canadian folks don't think the new latch limits apply here.

ketchupqueen · Mar 22, 2013

I had the same thought. My thought would be, they would have to apply for an exemption to not equip the seat with LATCH (hopefully they would still include the top tether!) and it might or might not be granted. Otherwise it would not meet standards.

When Orbit was preparing to dual-certify their infant seat, they got an exemption to put metric measurements before imperial measurements (I think?) so they could meet Canadian requirements and US requirements, both (maybe it was the other way around. In any case, they had to apply for an exemption and explain why, and they were able to get it.)

MommyShannon · Mar 22, 2013

I've worked for the government for years and can only imagine latch would still be required because it makes absolutely no sense and will ensure lots of misuse and the rule still exists to require it. Seriously though, there are BOOSTERS here in the US with 30lb minimum weights so it would be quite the unique harnessed seat to weigh 35lbs and have a 30lb minimum weight or weigh 30lbs and have a 35lb minimum. Plus if its ff only (assuming since it'd have lower weight limits otherwise), then odds are (except for diono's new seat) its a combo and latch would still be a preferred feature for booster mode.

ketchupqueen · Mar 22, 2013

In my hypothetical, it was a FF only or combination seat that weighed 47 lbs., just so there is NO CHANCE they will certify it from 18 lbs...

LISmama810 · Mar 22, 2013

MommyShannon said:
I've worked for the government for years and can only imagine latch would still be required because it makes absolutely no sense and will ensure lots of misuse and the rule still exists to require it.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

I'm also thinking a FF 30-lb minimum isn't too far-fetched, especially now with the push to RF until 2.

SafeDad · Mar 22, 2013

Oh, and doesn't the new rule specify that manufactures can also specify a maximum combined weight lower than 65 lbs?

(FTR, I have no idea if any of this actually applies to the Pinnacle. The other thread just got me thinking.)

Or a fixed child maximum weight on the new label that would result in a combined weight less than 65 pounds, yes.

LISmama810 · Mar 22, 2013

CPSDarren said:
Or a fixed child maximum weight on the new label that would result in a combined weight less than 65 pounds, yes.

Oh yeah, that's what I meant.

Carrie_R · Mar 22, 2013

I had the same thought, LIS. Would be interested to hear the answer.

LISmama810 · Mar 22, 2013

I wish we could tag people in these posts. I bet Pixels would know.

Pixelated · Mar 22, 2013

canadiangie said:
Great minds...

And if this were to happen, would that same seat be sold LUAS'less in Canada?? Cause I know a lot of Canadian folks don't think the new latch limits apply here.

I would like some clear direction on this, either from Transport Canada or CPSAC or both. TC's info still says this:

Important: If your child weighs over 18 kg (40 lbs), please ask your vehicle manufacturer if your vehicle can support a heavier child with the UAS and tether, or the seat belt and tether.

If the lower anchor limit changes DO apply to Canadian vehicles, then what about the top tether limits?

Maybe this should be its own thread -- sorry to derail if that's the case.

canadiangie · Mar 22, 2013

Pixelated said:
I would like some clear direction on this, either from Transport Canada or CPSAC or both. TC's info still says this:

If the lower anchor limit changes DO apply to Canadian vehicles, then what about the top tether limits?

Maybe this should be its own thread -- sorry to derail if that's the case.

It's just a disaster from start to finish. :thumbsdown:

amyd · Mar 22, 2013

canadiangie said:
It's just a disaster from start to finish. :thumbsdown:

Isn't that the truth? I just taught a tech class a couple weeks ago and this came up. I had absolutely no idea what to tell them other than what was in the curriculum (assume 40 unless otherwise stated).

Mamasboys · Mar 22, 2013

canadiangie said:
It's just a disaster from start to finish. :thumbsdown:

:yeahthatmad: The new/upcoming LATCH rules won't/don't do one darned thing to clarify or make proper car seat usage easier. Seriously, how many average parents/caregivers even have a clue on current limits? I dare say the general public has ZERO knowledge that there is a weight limit right now. For example, nowhere in my vehicles' manuals (all three) is LATCH weight limit mentioned, and neither do at least two of my carseat manuals. NONE!

Now, let's say Britax makes the new Frontier/Pinnacle weigh 35 lb w/ +30lb FF minimum, but still includes lower anchors for booster mode (I hope they do--my kids and DH are bad about buckling in an empty booster). How many people will be further confused and misuse the LATCH for harness installation?

This would be very bad...:thumbsdown: It's silly that with my DS3, I've finally owned vehicles with LATCH (and carseats to match), yet even with the wonderful knowledge from everyone here, I won't use LATCH. It's not just the confusion; it's the seemingly arbitrary decision that my car was SAFE to use LATCH to 48# last year, but next year it'll *magically* be super, uber dangerous. Crazy!

MommyShannon · Mar 23, 2013

I actually think it will help. From an engineering standpoint, I find limits based solely on child's weight ridiculous. Saying a 40lb kid plus 25lb seat is ok but not a 20lb seat plus 45lb kid is nuts. I follow the rule, but its silly and tells me the numbers aren't really based on any scientific data. The new way makes it straight forward for carseats to have big warnings that say "Don't use LATCH over xx lbs" since xx is based on their seats weight. Of course older cars won't change, but long term I think the guidelines will make the limitations known to more people. Right now you have two companies (car and carseat) that may give different limits or none at all so there isn't a 100% correct limit to put on a carseat. I wish latch could go to higher limits but for whatever reason it doesn't. This will at least increase proper use through clearer labels. As for cars from before the change, I think this will still make people aware there are limits and I'm not too worried if somebody uses the new limit on an older car. I think Honda's 40lb limit is the lowest and I'm allowed to use that with a 65lb seat so it can handle that combined 65lb weight. Not that I'm advocating misuse, just stating it doesn't seem extreme.

MommyShannon · Mar 23, 2013

Mamasboys said:
This would be very bad...:thumbsdown: It's silly that with my DS3, I've finally owned vehicles with LATCH (and carseats to match), yet even with the wonderful knowledge from everyone here, I won't use LATCH. It's not just the confusion; it's the seemingly arbitrary decision that my car was SAFE to use LATCH to 48# last year, but next year it'll *magically* be super, uber dangerous. Crazy!

These guidelines are for new cars and carseats unless a company make it retro from what I know. Yes, for seats like the FR, now the limit is a 45lb kid, the Radian a 39lb kid, but the Maestro can use it for the full 50lb harness limit, and the SureRide to 56lbs. The fact that car manufactures set a limit without knowing how heavy carseats might get is odd.

D&L's-mommy · Mar 23, 2013

Mamasboys said:
:yeahthatmad: Seriously, how many average parents/caregivers even have a clue on current limits?

this is my thought, most parents don't know there's a limit, some people just skim through their manuals, or just look at the pictures. They assume if there's LATCH, it's to used. I had posted on FB about the new 2013 limits and a lot of people messaged me "what do you mean I have to switch to a seatbelt install? I didn't know you could install a car seat using the seatbelt"

I think LATCH on a seat like the pinnacle is great for booster mode (if it's approved to use) but I just see so many parents not taking the time to read their manual. Perhaps an easily seen sticker by the LATCH storage on the CR saying "LOWER ANCHORS ARE FOR USE IN BOOSTER MODE ONLY, TOP TETHER IS REQUIRED AT X-LBS" may help? Of course most people I talk to don't realize top tethers are part of the LATCH system, they think just the lower anchors are LATCH

LISmama810 · Mar 23, 2013

I agree that it's great that LATCH is finally being standardized. I agree that it's illogical and asinine that a car would allow a 40-lb kid in a 25-lb seat, but not a 45-lb kid in a 20-lb seat.

The problem is that it's too little, too late. LATCH has existed in a haphazard way for more than a decade now. This new "standardization" is a band-aid to a larger problem.

It also raises lots of questions, not the least of which is, "Are LATCH anchors really capable of holding 65 lbs?"

A better solution would have been to make the new limit 80 lbs or 100 lbs combined, but I assume there's SOME reason that wasn't done, and I wouldn't be surprised if the answer isn't based on science.

The other problem with standardizing LATCH now, finally, is that the new standard applies ONLY to car seats, not cars. Vehicles will still be able to have their own limits. So if a seat weighs 15 lbs and has a 50-lb child limit, but Honda still has a 40-lb limit, you still have to stop at 40 lbs. That doesn't clear things up much, does it? I'd love to see all the vehicle manufacturers get on board with 65-combined, but there's no guarantee that will happen.

But anyway, we've had lots of threads on that issue, and I'm sure we'll have more. This thread was mainly intended to ponder the demise of LATCH through heavy seats and high minimum weights, though I don't mind side discussions.

nannykates · Mar 23, 2013

I think the easiest way to sell combo seats with a LATCH strap for booster use only would be to have it separate from the seat (like in a bag sotored in a compartment on the seat with booster use only on it). I think people see something in the belt path and think they have to use it.

ketchupqueen · Mar 23, 2013

nannykates said:
I think the easiest way to sell combo seats with a LATCH strap for booster use only would be to have it separate from the seat (like in a bag sotored in a compartment on the seat with booster use only on it). I think people see something in the belt path and think they have to use it.

Hmm, I think that lower anchors are required to be usable to secure the seat in harnessed mode, though. I'd have to go re-read that wording. I know they have to be "permanently secured" to the seat. I still think an exemption would be the way to go.

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