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  1. #1
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    New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    All,

    I have a Radian XTSL and have it installed in the center of my 2012 CR-V. I can get a pretty good install with the seatbelt, but it causes the belt to bunch in the latch plate and I'm not thrilled with the "wear" that it causes on the belt. (After just a few days, there was a line/stretch mark of sorts along the belt.)

    I'm aware of the historic 40-pound (DD is 40 pounds) lower latch limit in Hondas, but my 2012 CR-V manual expressly defers to the carseat manual on lower latch limits. (I suspect this is because the actual anchors aren't going anywhere and it's the latch connectors that are the limiting factor.) I'm also aware of the new 65 pounds, seat plus child guidelines. And, I'm aware of the concerns with the Radian superlatch loosening/overall disappointment there. I also saw a thread where a lot of mamas said they wouldn't use Radian's latch belt past the historic car limits.

    My Radian latch belt has never had loosening issues (knock on wood, I always checked it just in case.) Just checking back in now that the dust seems to have cleared on the Radian latch plate. I can get a much better install using latch - and yay for CR-V's allowing for center latch installs! So what do you think on using superlatch as it was intended?

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  3. #2
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    If your Honda owner's manual specifically defers to the child restraint manufacturer for LATCH limit guidance, then you should follow that advice. The new guidelines will not become effective until 2014 and will not be retroactive, so those would not be a concern unless Honda updates their manual with an advisory or recall. As for the loosening issue, if you have not experienced this, then you should be fine to use SuperLATCH as instructed, in a case where the vehicle owners manual defers to the child restraint manufacturer for LATCH limits.

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  5. #3
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    There is no way I'd use LATCH in a Honda past 40 lbs when Honda engineers have stated not to, and there's no way I'd trust LATCH to the limits Diono says you can when the federal government is saying it isn't so.

    My SL loosening issues happened in an '07 RDX (same as CRV) and there were other reports of it happening in CRVs. It even happened with the replacement SL belts that supposedly had been fixed. The angle of install was such that it caused the webbing to be at a 90 degree angle from the adjuster, and that caused it to never properly tighten. Even with an acceptable install of less than 1" of movement, I could lightly push down on the adjuster and it would immediately loosen. However, perhaps the angle of the LATCH connectors in the CRV has changed and this is no longer an issue? I don't know.

    As I recall, though, it also installed just fine with the seatbelt. It maybe took slightly more effort, but was quite doable. So if I were you, I'd just use the seatbelt.

  6. #4
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    Thanks, y'all! I can get a perfectly acceptable install with the seatbelt, but I don't love the idea of it causing wear on the seatbelt and bunching at the latch plate. I actually feel more comfortable with the latch install. The seatbelt has to be so tight to reduce movement that it is pulling on the stalk at full force. It just doesn't feel like stalks were designed to have that amount of force pulling on them 24/7 (as opposed to just in an accident). But of course I'm no engineer and readily admit that.

    If Honda's engineers have stated not to use lower latch past 40 pounds, and that statement still stands, why isn't it in my manual?

    I'll go back to a seat belt install, I'm sure. Just wanted to start the discussion. Thanks again!

  7. #5
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    ETA: They must have changed the angle or something on the anchors in the CR-V, because yesterday I installed with latch and it literally took me 5 minutes and a lot of cursing to get it loose. I had to pull on the loosener with all my strength (many times) to get it to release.
    Last edited by sas003; 02-08-2013 at 09:16 AM. Reason: typo

  8. #6
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    Sidebar (and sorry for bombing my own thread with posts): Stelvis, are you the same Stelvis of the BBC breastfeeding board fame? If so, OMG I heart you.

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sas003 View Post
    ETA: They must have changed the angle or something on the anchors in the CR-V, because yesterday I installed with latch and it literally took me 5 minutes and a lot of cursing to get it loose. I had to pull on the loosener with all my strength (many times) to get it to release.
    Well, that's good to hear.

    Obviously I'm not a tech and would defer to Darren because he's given you the technically correct answer.

    I, personally, for myself, don't trust it.

  10. #8
    CPS Technician tiggercat's Avatar
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    Can you share the wording in the Honda's manual that indicates that it defers to the carseat manufacturer? Hondas have always been 40lb, though they often omit any reference to this in the manual, and I'd be interested in hearing/seeing the new wording. Thanks!

    Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org
    Natalie, CRST-I, mum of Greg (15), Megan (10), Benjamin and Samuel (6).


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  12. #9
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by tiggercat View Post
    Can you share the wording in the Honda's manual that indicates that it defers to the carseat manufacturer? Hondas have always been 40lb, though they often omit any reference to this in the manual, and I'd be interested in hearing/seeing the new wording. Thanks!

    Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org
    Here you go, Natalie!
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/9057088...in/photostream

    ETA: middle paragraph, sorry I couldn't get photo to embed.

  13. #10
    CPS Technician Brigala's Avatar
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    IMO, that language is too ambiguous for me to be willing to go against what Honda has stated in the 2013 LATCH manual - which is to discontinue the use of LATCH when the child reaches 40 lbs.
    Mom to 2 adult boys and 2 little girls.
    Giant 5 year old in FR85 & Pinnacle; Petite toddler in Complete Air & CCO.

  14. #11
    CPS Technician tiggercat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brigala View Post
    IMO, that language is too ambiguous for me to be willing to go against what Honda has stated in the 2013 LATCH manual - which is to discontinue the use of LATCH when the child reaches 40 lbs.
    Agreed. It seems like it is warning that the CRS might have a latch limit, but it doesn't defer to the CRS manufacturer.
    I'd follow the 2013 latch manual since it is both the most recent and more definitively clear language available.

    Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org
    Natalie, CRST-I, mum of Greg (15), Megan (10), Benjamin and Samuel (6).


  15. #12
    CPS Technician canadiangie's Avatar
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    I just wanna know if Stelvis is famous.

  16. #13
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by sas003 View Post
    If Honda's engineers have stated not to use lower latch past 40 pounds, and that statement still stands, why isn't it in my manual?
    That's a great question and a big part of the reason why there is so much confusion on this topic. The vague wording in many auto manufacturer's manuals and the sometimes conflicting information from the LATCH Manual (and various other organizations involved in child passenger safety) amounts to a situation that is impossible for parents and even certified technicians to understand. Further adding to the confusion is that information you receive from anyone in a particular company may not be consistent with what someone else heard from another person at the same company. For example, I understand that the main reason for Honda's 40 pound LATCH-limit was solely in response to the request by the publishers of the LATCH Manual for something to include in their reference information. Here is some history-

    http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=229031

    As for the wording in your manual, here is the latest information I have received from Honda's regulatory department as of 8/20/12, in response to an inquiry arising from the previous thread above. The regulatory office is the group that makes sure all instructions comply with various federal standards and other legal requirements:

    As we have discussed in the past, Honda designs our vehicles to accommodate most child seats currently in the market, accounting for the weight of the child restraint seat (CRS) and the child who will be secured in the CRS.
    However, Honda cannot account for changes to all CRSs each year.

    As such, we defer to the CRS manufacturer's instructions for the weight limits of the lower anchors and the upper tether.

    Below, I've included several excerpts from the 2012 model year Honda Pilot, where you can see several references deferring to the CRS manufacturer's instructions.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  18. #14
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    This is all so interesting. I think the language in my manual and the Pilot manual is only ambiguous if you consider the content of the LATCH manual, and I suspect 95% of the population is unaware such a thing exists. Even this carseat addict and attorney had no idea there was an actual LATCH manual until this thread. Readers of the vehicle manual can only take what it says on its face given that it doesn't reference or incorporate the LATCH manual, and that language expressly (in a legal sense) says to defer to the seat. You'd think Honda's counsel would be all over this. Oh wait...

    Darren, thanks for all the background information! I don't know how you CPST's don't lose your minds. I really appreciate you guys! (And as to whether Stelvis is famous, what happens in BBC stays in BBC )

    Back to the seat belt install, I suppose (DD is exactly 40 pounds), just for peace of mind. Should I replace the seatbelt if the bunching causes wear then? A new seat? I tried the frontier yesterday and got a similar install (rock solid with bunched belt) with SBP and a better one with LBP, but man, LATCH just feels better, ya know? (ETA: I know the seatbelt is just as safe!)

  19. #15
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    I prefer the Frontier Long Belt Path installation, if you don't mind the added difficulty.

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  21. #16
    CPS Technician tiggercat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSDarren View Post

    That's a great question and a big part of the reason why there is so much confusion on this topic. The vague wording in many auto manufacturer's manuals and the sometimes conflicting information from the LATCH Manual (and various other organizations involved in child passenger safety) amounts to a situation that is impossible for parents and even certified technicians to understand. Further adding to the confusion is that information you receive from anyone in a particular company may not be consistent with what someone else heard from another person at the same company. For example, I understand that the main reason for Honda's 40 pound LATCH-limit was solely in response to the request by the publishers of the LATCH Manual for something to include in their reference information. Here is some history-

    http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=229031

    As for the wording in your manual, here is the latest information I have received from Honda's regulatory department as of 8/20/12, in response to an inquiry arising from the previous thread above. The regulatory office is the group that makes sure all instructions comply with various federal standards and other legal requirements:
    Darren, do you know why they didn't provide this to the manufacturer survey for the LATCH manual, and do you interpret that as Honda deferring to the CRS manufacturer?

    Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org
    Natalie, CRST-I, mum of Greg (15), Megan (10), Benjamin and Samuel (6).


  22. #17
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: New Latch Guidelines and Diono Superlatch post-latch loosening debacle

    I really can't tell you how to interpret this. My interpretation is that when pressed for a number, they provided a very conservative one to be printed in the LATCH manual, probably to avoid a possible issue if some company produced a 35 pound child seat rated to a 100 pound child! That seems to be the jist of the quoted comment, at least from what I infer.

    So, who do you believe? Me? My contact in the regulatory department? Someone who knows an engineer there? Someone on the customer service hotline? The LATCH manual? The owner's manual is the final authority, but of course, that doesn't help if it seems vague to you. I wish there was more clarity for LATCH limits in general, but unfortunately, there is only a lot of confusion.

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