another Dorel/Cosco discussion?

The following was posted on another thread, in response to someone asking for comments on a 3-in-1 seat:

START OF QUOTE FROM OTHER THREAD
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Also here is a list of cons another member here came up:

1. This WILL NOT BE THE ONLY SEAT YOU WILL EVER NEED!! Reason being... Carseats expire after 6 years max (plastic starts to break down after 5 years and the seat can have hidden damage and fail in a crash). Children need to ride in a booster seat until they are 8-10 years old and at least 4ft 9in tall. Also there are new advances on carseats all the time and in 6 years there will be lots of new information and new seats out that will be better. You will need to purchase a new seat after your AO expires.
2. There have been problems with the harness straps twisting. You may or may not have a problem with this, but something to be aware of and for others to know. These MUST be untwisted EVERY SINGLE RIDE and need to lie flat against the body.
3. The harness slots are rather low on this seat and your child may outgrow it by height before weight and making them need the belt position booster when they should still be in a harness (should be in a harness until at least 40lbs).
4. The back on the booster is not all that high and will probably be outgrown by a child at about 60lbs (tips of ears are even with the top of the shell).
5. The AO is designed with less head/side support then other convertibles in order to accommodate the later belt-position booster. But yet it offers too much side support for a belt position booster and it could cause the shoulder belt to be held away from the child’s body and in a crash the child could slip out from under the belt.
6. The chest clip tends to slide down when in use and the clip needs to stay at armpit level in order to prevent ejection from the seat and car in the event of a crash. Cosco is aware of this problem and has redesigned the clip, but some models still have the old clip.
7. This seat can be very difficult to install in many vehicles. It has many incompatibility issues. Some of which cannot be fixed and a different seat is recommended.
8. Seat shell may crack in extreme heat. This renders the seat completely useless. Cosco is not at all surprised this accurse and Cosco customer service says (according to one mom who spoke with customer service) "sometimes that happens on these seats when you have a hot spell".
From Consumer Reports…
9. When used a belt position booster (with out the harness) the belt guide can stick causing the belt to have slack. The child could slip out from under it in the event of a crash.
10. Also when used as a belt position booster (also with other Cosco boosters) children can slip out from under the lap belt portion in a crash.
New info I have learned about Cosco as a company: First, Cosco has several lawsuits filed against them right now for allegedly selling dangerous seats. They are aware of many problems with certain seats and refuse to pull them from store shelves as they “pass all federal safety standards”. The reason these seats pass standards is because they are only TESTED in frontal collisions, but the in real life results have been much different and unfortunately it has resulted in many children being seriously injured, paralyzed, and killed. Second, Cosco has been fined by the government many, many times for reporting false information to NHSTA about their seats. Third, Cosco will wait until they absolutely HAVE to put a recall out on one of their seats before doing so. This to me tells me they are a company out for a few $$ instead of worrying about children’s lives
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END OF QUOTE FROM OTHER THREAD

I own two AO's myself, and although I wouldn't particularly recommend these seats to others (there are better ways to spend your carseat money, as I have learned), the above indictment seems almost too sweeping. I personally have not had much trouble with harness straps twisting, and from everything I've read, the bad harness straps have been replaced with better ones as of several years ago (point 2 above). I've never had trouble with the chest clip sliding down, on my 2001 and 2004 models (point 6 above). We have found the seat generally easy to install, although I don't doubt that it's harder in some vehicles (point 7 above), but then most seats are harder to install in some vehicles than others. We haven't seen cracks in the shell, although our 2001 seat has been pretty much continuously in a vehicle for 6 years, through all seasonal temperature cycles (point 8 above). As for lack of head support (mentioned in point 5 above), I don't really find the AO worse than some other seats in that regard (our Radian doesn't have a lot of side head support either).

However, the criticism that concerns me most is the one bolded above. Is this a reference to the recent story about the Tourivas with the notches? If there really is evidence of 'many children being seriously injured, paralyzed, and killed' because of defects in the AO design, I would really like to see that evidence. Anyone?? If this is just an overblown restatement of the relatively few injuries mentioned in the Touriva story, I find this an unhelpful comment, to put it mildly, given the millions of these seats that are in use. And, don't pretty much all carseats available for sale in the U.S. 'pass standards because they are only TESTED in frontal collisions'?? Hardly seems like a damning indictment in itself...

I don't particularly trust Cosco/Dorel myself, so I find it odd to feel somewhat on the defensive, but this sweeping criticism just annoyed me, to be honest.

Katrin

Blanket statements are never a good thing. There is a reason we call "generalities" PROPAGANDA.

Personally, I am not a fan of the 3-in-1 seats at all. I agree that your money can usually be better spent on other seats. However, there are some good points about the 3-in-1. It is a good rear-facing seat for most people!

While I agree with many of the statements above, I think some of the points are possibly exaggerated and thus unfair.

Patriot20171 said:

Blanket statements are never a good thing. There is a reason we call "generalities" PROPAGANDA.

Click to expand...

I wrote the statements above after dealing with this seat for years, but this (as in the list) has been around for at least 3 years now. Every one of them I've had come into a check that has been used for some time had many if not all of the above statements. I wouldn't call them blanket statements. The seat is TERRIBLE to deal with, TERRIBLE to use correctly every time (I think it's a PITB to use rear-facing too, cause after you have to remove the base to get it installed tight, you have to reach your hand into no mans land to get to the adjuster). I've seen cracked seats. Twisted harnesses that look like rope. I personally don't think they are exaggerated. I think the seat is not worth the $$ Dorel charges for it. Just adding my 2 cents as the person that put together the above "list of things wrong with the AO".

Alot of us have either had or used or seen AOE/AO in our lifetime and alot of use agree that the money can be spent way better and that there are way better carseats out there. These carseats are outgrown by height by a huge amount of kids (my 22mth old nephew is one of them) but it actually does fit some children for the whole 8 yrs (the girls I look after still fit in their AOEs). Yes they can be good as a RF seat since they go to 35lbs (in US) but you can get a Scenera that does the same and than give less money to Dorel.
The only way I can get a decent RF install in my van is without the base and than it is almost impossible to tighten properly. The straps twist horrible, the base is huge and annoying, the headrest gets in the way of the seatbelt when used as a booster and most people don't realize the top harness height is only for booster mode. I have one and will not use it as a booster unless it is an emergency because I really don't like how the seatbelt is above the child's hips (even my 8 yr old nephew) and I don't feel that Dorel really cares that these seats are basically crap.
At a recent checkstop I had a 3.5 yr old in a AO in booster mode (over 40lbs) that even with his seatbelt locked he could put his foot under his bum and than put the seatbelt under his arm. There was just way too much room between the shell (where the lapbelt portion was) and he hips/waist area so he could move alot.

carseatmom said:

I wrote the statements above after dealing with this seat for years, but this (as in the list) has been around for at least 3 years now. Every one of them I've had come into a check that has been used for some time had many if not all of the above statements. I wouldn't call them blanket statements. The seat is TERRIBLE to deal with, TERRIBLE to use correctly every time (I think it's a PITB to use rear-facing too, cause after you have to remove the base to get it installed tight, you have to reach your hand into no mans land to get to the adjuster). I've seen cracked seats. Twisted harnesses that look like rope. I personally don't think they are exaggerated. I think the seat is not worth the $$ Dorel charges for it. Just adding my 2 cents as the person that put together the above "list of things wrong with the AO".

Click to expand...

Well, and IS there evidence of 'many children being seriously injured, paralyzed, and killed' in the 3-in-1 seats? Or was that a reference to the Touriva story? And isn't the twisted harness complaint old news at this point (I thought Dorel had replaced the straps with a better material several years ago)? Maybe Dorel doesn't get credit for anything they do fix, just because it's Dorel, and we hate them by definition? I admit that I've only dealt with two of these seats personally, and have only installed them in four different vehicles, so it is a much smaller base of experience than what someone would see at seat checks. We do install RF without the base, and reaching the harness adjuster is a minor annoyance, but hardly a huge drama.

Katrin

I can see your point about the generalizations; there are probably a lot of people out there who are happy w/their AO seats BUT I do think that people trying to decide on which seat to purchase should be made aware of the business practices of Dorel- for instance, selling seats that they knew were faulty, and were responsible for injuries (I also think this applies to Evenflo). To make an informed decision, you need all the info. And while the AO and Scenera, Triumph Advance, etc. might be great, safe, seats, they are still made by companies that have displayed abhorrent ethics, and people deserve to have that info when deciding which company to buy from. When people ask my opinion on what seats to consider, I tell them about the Dorel/Evenflo info. that was published in the Chicago Tribune article. I would definately want to know what those companies' practices were if I was considering purchasing a seat from them. (Which I will never do, and my kids will never ride in a seat by either manufacturer again)

Yes there were cases of children being seriously injured, paralyzed, and killed in the seat. But unfortunately I cannot remember where my source of that info came from. It was many years ago, and I can't remember every detail. I did not, however, pull it from my behind. And again, this list is many years old, Dorel may have changed the harness so that it doesn't twist as much since this was made. However, I haven't seen that much of a difference in the seats I've seen come into checks. I'm still seeing twisted harnesses.

I've been a tech for over 6 years, I've dealt with hundreds of these seats. They are hard to deal with, and I'd much rather a parent make an informed decision about it before they buy. This info is there to do that. To help parents make an informed decision. What didn't get cut and pasted from my saved copy of this list is that parents may or may not experience all of the issues. It depends on how they use the seat too.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...topstory&coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

Read this

laccaycol said:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...topstory&coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

Read this

Click to expand...

OK, this particular link requires a password. I did read the Chicago Tribune article that was discussed a few weeks ago, but that was about the Touriva seat, for the most part. Is this the same article? It certainly gave me further doubts about the ethics of Dorel, in terms of covering up known safety issues. However, my question really is whether there is evidence that the 3-in-1 seats are known/documented to be unsafe in practice. The design has been out there for many years. I believe I have seen reference to seat failures due to people using the poorly marked top harness position, which is for booster use only, but are the AO type seats otherwise known to be particularly failure-prone in practice?

Katrin

Additionally, if the safety issue that folks were referencing above is that notch in the Touriva and A/O seats, it's important to remember that other brands of seats have/had these notches, as well. It is not unique to the 3-in-1's.

singingpond said:

OK, this particular link requires a password. I did read the Chicago Tribune article that was discussed a few weeks ago, but that was about the Touriva seat, for the most part. Is this the same article? It certainly gave me further doubts about the ethics of Dorel, in terms of covering up known safety issues. However, my question really is whether there is evidence that the 3-in-1 seats are known/documented to be unsafe in practice. The design has been out there for many years. I believe I have seen reference to seat failures due to people using the poorly marked top harness position, which is for booster use only, but are the AO type seats otherwise known to be particularly failure-prone in practice?

Katrin

Click to expand...

There's a documented failure in the dynamic crash tests on the NHTSA compliance page... supposedly Dorel retested the seats and told NHTSA they really are fine, but the F is still there on the page.

As far as the claim that they are more unsafe than the average seat in real life use, I don't believe it's been documented.

Patriot20171 said:

Blanket statements are never a good thing. There is a reason we call "generalities" PROPAGANDA.

Personally, I am not a fan of the 3-in-1 seats at all. I agree that your money can usually be better spent on other seats. However, there are some good points about the 3-in-1. It is a good rear-facing seat for most people!

While I agree with many of the statements above, I think some of the points are possibly exaggerated and thus unfair.

Click to expand...

My feelings exactly -- while I agree with many of the individual criticisms in the quoted passage, and while I would hardly ever recommend this seat to anyone, the overall passage was so exaggerated in its tone that my propaganda sensors are going off.

Katrin

carseatmom said:

Yes there were cases of children being seriously injured, paralyzed, and killed in the seat. But unfortunately I cannot remember where my source of that info came from. It was many years ago, and I can't remember every detail. I did not, however, pull it from my behind. And again, this list is many years old, Dorel may have changed the harness so that it doesn't twist as much since this was made. However, I haven't seen that much of a difference in the seats I've seen come into checks. I'm still seeing twisted harnesses.

I've been a tech for over 6 years, I've dealt with hundreds of these seats. They are hard to deal with, and I'd much rather a parent make an informed decision about it before they buy. This info is there to do that. To help parents make an informed decision. What didn't get cut and pasted from my saved copy of this list is that parents may or may not experience all of the issues. It depends on how they use the seat too.

Click to expand...

Exactly... I also would like to make informed decisions. So, when someone says that there is evidence of 'many children being seriously injured, paralyzed, and killed' in a carseat I am currently using for my 5 m.o. daughter, I have to pay attention, especially when that person claims the authority of being an experienced carseat tech. However....'Yes there were cases of children being seriously injured, paralyzed, and killed in the seat. But unfortunately I cannot remember where my source of that info came from'.... doesn't do much as far as informing me further. Of course there are cases of children injured, etc. in this seat, since millions of them are in use, and not all accidents are survivable. But, does the seat have an out-of-proportion failure/injury/death rate in accidents, compared to other carseats?? The AO and its clones have been out there long enough; wouldn't we know by now?

I honestly would like to know, since if the original statement is really true, I should stop using this seat for my daughter (installed RF in the center of the rear seat of our secondary vehicle, which I thought was a pretty safe use) and buy something documented to be safer..... Hmmm... maybe a Scenera, which so many techs here seem to recommend highly but how can that be, since Dorel is apparently the evil empire?

Katrin

joolsplus3 said:

There's a documented failure in the dynamic crash tests on the NHTSA compliance page... supposedly Dorel retested the seats and told NHTSA they really are fine, but the F is still there on the page.

As far as the claim that they are more unsafe than the average seat in real life use, I don't believe it's been documented.

Click to expand...

Thank you for a clear response to my main question! I am confident that you are well informed on the literature and studies out there, so this puts my mind at ease somewhat.

Katrin

UlrikeDG said:

Additionally, if the safety issue that folks were referencing above is that notch in the Touriva and A/O seats, it's important to remember that other brands of seats have/had these notches, as well. It is not unique to the 3-in-1's.

Click to expand...

The older AO's do have the notch (I checked mine, DOM 2001 and 2004, and they both have it), but it apparently is not an injury hazard (the way it is in the Touriva) since the movable headrest on the 3-in-1's is between the child's head and the notch in the outer shell. I can easily imagine that other brands of seats have/had this design also, since it seems to be the spot where the OHS would be attached, in the OHS version of the same seat.

Katrin

The Evenflo Tribute has the notches on the side (no adjustable head rest either) Here's a pic: