Question Did I miss something in the Mommy manual?

3BoysMommy

New member
After a strap failure due to a design flaw on my Evenflo Triumph, I had to decide on a new car seat for my youngest son. As far as I can tell, there are no safety ratings or crash test results available to the public; am I missing something?
I am aware of the "ease-of-use" ratings from the NHTSA. I am also aware that proper usage and proper fit for both the child and vehicle are extremely important, but I still want to how well the seats actually perform in a crash. I am not content to purchase purely based on the reputation of the brand or a bunch of slick, trademarked feature names. I was able to find some PDF's of 3 year old data with no explanation of methodology, but it's not exactly helpful. Is current info actually available to the public?
I am not fishing for recommendations of a specific seat; I want numbers.
 
ADS

MamaErin

New member
No, you are not missing anything. Crash test data such as actual numbers are not released to the public. All anyone knows is that every seat on the market passed the same safety testing, there is no way to know by how much and if one seat did a little better than another.
 

MamaErin

New member
I thought Diono, the makers of the Radian, does publish their crash test results data. Check out this link
http://us.diono.com/en/safety-center
I don't think any other companies publish that data

Yea, I have heard Diono does but that doesn't really help in deciding on a seat since other seats don't release their data, there is nothing to compare to. If someone is specifically interested in a Radian it would be nice info to have but there is no way to know what that means in relation to other seats.
 

3BoysMommy

New member
Thank you for answering, I was really beginning to doubt myself. I found trying to choose a new seat utterly frustrating with so little concrete information out there. I was so upset I actually created a petition for release of crash test results, but after failing to get more than a couple friends to sign it, I was really doubting my research methods and thinking every other parent must know something I don't. Do you know if there is anyone working to get crash test results made public? If there is, I would love to help their effort.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
Crash test numbers actually are available to the public, although usually at least a year late, and not all models are tested every year.

The problem is that although we can see the numbers, we don't really know how they translate into actual effectiveness. I mean, sure, we can see that one seat got significantly lower head excursion numbers than another, but what if--at some point--it's better to have a little more head excursion?

It also can't tell us how a seat performs with YOUR kid in YOUR car (general "you" there). We know what happens on a test sled with a 3-year-old dummy.

We also only know how seats perform in a simulated frontal crash. Not an off-set crash, not a side-impact, etc.

Personally, I feel the best thing to do is to get something that installs well in your car, is comfortable for your kid, is easy to buckle/adjust, and will be used properly each time.
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
Well you have a pretty complicated question there.

First off...can you tell me about the strap failure you experienced with the Triumph please. That's a pretty popular seat around here and the harness design is actually used on multiple seats in Evenflo's lineup, but this is the first time I've heard of a design flaw.

Now on to your question. The amount of variables between vehicles, crashes, the effect of crash forces on different parts of the body, and child sizes makes a direct comparison of a seat's crash performance to complex to put into a meaningful rating system.

To give you an example here:

lets pretend we invent a point system for different crash scenarios. For the sake of simplification, there are going to be only two categories

-ffing head injury criteria with a tether and ffing head injury without a tether without a tether- (HIC is a measure of likelihood of head injury, with or without head contact)

and the seats tested are only for children weighing 30-35# and 30-34" tall (a small enough window to ensure a pretty consistent size)

Now seat performance with a tether and seat performance without are both very important, but only about 40ish percent of people in the US actually use a tether (please pass the word about how important they are to all your friends) so we can weigh the results of the without tether as 60% of the final score.

Seat 1: HIC with a tether says there is a 20% chance of serious head injury so we will give it an 8 for tether score. Without a tether HIC says there is a 50% for so we will give it a 5.
weighting the scores as I said above, the combined score for the seat is 5.9

Seat 2: HIC tethered 2(80% chance of serious injury), and without tether 6 (40% chance of serious injury) leaving us a total score of 4.6

Seat 2 seems like the safer seat here, and if you are using it untethered, it is safer...but seat 1 is significantly safer than seat 2 when used without the tether.

If there were just 2 categories the scores could easily be split so people could make a choice based on what the expected usage would be, but there are actually a lot more variables.

Instead the way the system works is threshold conditions have been set for all these dozens of criteria of what performance is needed to reasonably expect a kid to survive a crash with only minor injuries. These thresholds are pretty comprehensive and are the result of years of research into what the tolerances of the human body are and what the likely effect of vehicle variables on the carseat are. A seat that can't meet one of the thresholds doesn't pass. There are literally dozens of ways a seat can fail. It's like taking a hundred question multiple choice test where you have to get 100 correct in order to pass the class. You have to know your stuff if you are going to make it.

What has come out of this system are extremely safe seats. We know certain features are showing promising results in categories like side impact safety that are not currently part of the testing procedure (in large part because it takes years of real world data to figure out what the threshold allowances need to be and in smaller part because seats are already so very safe that the additional expense has questionable potential returns )

and that certain features make correct use more likely (a HUGE deal when we are looking at a 90+% misuse rate) but the overall picture of safety is too complex to simplify into something the general public could use. For now the most important advice we can give is the "Choose a seat that fits your child well, fits your car well, and is easy enough for you to use properly every time" line.

If you do that, you will be making a very safe choice for your child, I promise.
 

MamaErin

New member
Crash test numbers actually are available to the public, although usually at least a year late, and not all models are tested every year.

The problem is that although we can see the numbers, we don't really know how they translate into actual effectiveness. I mean, sure, we can see that one seat got significantly lower head excursion numbers than another, but what if--at some point--it's better to have a little more head excursion?

It also can't tell us how a seat performs with YOUR kid in YOUR car (general "you" there). We know what happens on a test sled with a 3-year-old dummy.

We also only know how seats perform in a simulated frontal crash. Not an off-set crash, not a side-impact, etc.

Personally, I feel the best thing to do is to get something that installs well in your car, is comfortable for your kid, is easy to buckle/adjust, and will be used properly each time.

Thanks for clarifying that. I always see everyone say "all seats pass the same tests" so I just try to get across the point that we don't know which seat is safer, I didn't realize it was because it's hard to translate the numbers...I figured it was because they weren't available.
 
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3BoysMommy

New member
Well you have a pretty complicated question there.

First off...can you tell me about the strap failure you experienced with the Triumph please. That's a pretty popular seat around here and the harness design is actually used on multiple seats in Evenflo's lineup, but this is the first time I've heard of a design flaw.

Wow, thank you for that explanation of why safety information isn't released. I still don't believe every passing seat is the same, but I feel less guilty for not being able to afford the super-pricey stuff.

As far as the Triumph's strap failure, it was the crotch strap that failed, completely detaching from the seat as my husband buckled our son in. The strap actually frayed through. Initially Evenflo tried to blame it on "small animal damage," however I found this to be a ludicrous explanation as this seat was never stored and there was no other indication of "small animals." Upon dismantling the car seat's enclosed bottom, I found a plastic protrusion just in front of the crotch strap when placed in the forward (closer to edge of seat) position, but no sign of rodents. This protrusion lines up perfectly with the most damaged section of strap. There is even a section of strap that has been rubbed to the point of being slightly shiny but not frayed just above the frayed section. The current Triumph has the same protrusion, you can feel with your fingers. I have pictures on the damage and protrusion if you would like to see them.
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
Wow, thank you for that explanation of why safety information isn't released. I still don't believe every passing seat is the same, but I feel less guilty for not being able to afford the super-pricey stuff.

As far as the Triumph's strap failure, it was the crotch strap that failed, completely detaching from the seat as my husband buckled our son in. The strap actually frayed through. Initially Evenflo tried to blame it on "small animal damage," however I found this to be a ludicrous explanation as this seat was never stored and there was no other indication of "small animals." Upon dismantling the car seat's enclosed bottom, I found a plastic protrusion just in front of the crotch strap when placed in the forward (closer to edge of seat) position, but no sign of rodents. This protrusion lines up perfectly with the most damaged section of strap. There is even a section of strap that has been rubbed to the point of being slightly shiny but not frayed just above the frayed section. The current Triumph has the same protrusion, you can feel with your fingers. I have pictures on the damage and protrusion if you would like to see them.

I would like to see pictures. (I believe you, I just want to know what to look for)
 

vtbecca

New member
No input, just want to say wow, how scary! I thought there had been someone else here a while back (possibly a year or two) who had a similar issue. I can't remember the seat, but small animal damage sounds really familiar.

Becca
 

creideamh

Well-known member
I saw your pics on Evenflo's FB page a couple of weeks ago. Absolutely insane.

(and yeah that to everyone else about crash test data.)
 

Calleiah

Active member
Have you reported the failure to NHTSA? I think that's something they need to see pronto. They may actually want the seat for inspection.
 

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