booster vs. harness

D&L's-mommy · Jan 18, 2013

rather than continue to hijack Baylor's "after the side impact test videos..." I started a new thread
My question is about whether to continue to harness my DD (4.5y 43" 40lbs). My concern is about neck load. The quote is from Baylor's thread...

aeormsby said:
Neck loading is referring to the amount of stress on the spine. Generalizing it - in a harnessed seat the entire torso is held back, therefore the only part of the body that can fly forward is the head, that means all the stress of the head moving is on the neck. In a booster with the seatbelt the entire torso is allowed to move forward which means that the head/neck/torso are moving together and the stress is spread out more, theoretically less stress specifically on the neck.

And yes some of those crash videos look terrifying. But without knowing the actual data that results from them (they take all kinds of measurements on stress and stuff on the dummies) it's hard to say exactly what the outcome would have been. Some of the ones with lots of movement might be better because it's a gradual slowing down instead of an abrupt stop.

that helps me understand why a seat belt *may* be safer after a certain weight/age/size. Do we know what size that occurs at? I guess it depends on the exact circumstance of the crash? Perhaps for one type of crash a seat belt may be *safer*, another type of crash a harness *may* be safer? I'm so torn about whether my 4.5 YO is best in a HBB (that fits great) or harness. At what size is child *equally* safe in either, and at what point is the belt *safer* ?All the crash tests seem so circumstantial to me,how well do they translate to real life?

tiggercat · Jan 18, 2013

It is more about maturity, IMO. Do you trust your 4.5 yr old to maintain proper belt positioning every second of every ride?

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rachelandtyke · Jan 18, 2013

At 4.5, I did not trust my DD to sit properly in her booster at all times. At 6.5 I did. It was a matter of her maturity, not her size. If a child in a booster does not sit properly, then a harnessed seat is the safer option.

Baylor · Jan 18, 2013

Just so you know, When I came here I was going to harness until my kids left for college. I was really freaked out by the video about a child who was killed when riding in a booster. I did not know enough then to consider all the mistakes that were made. She was too young and too small for a booster. But it scared me stupid. I could only hear HARNESS HARNESS HARNESS in my head.

The longer I was here the more some incredibly patient Techs took the time to explain to me the ins and outs of boostering correctly and harnessing appropriately. I got it.

If I had a 4.5 yr old that was of average size, I would harness. I am harnessing My almost 5 yr old now in a FR85. He is on top slot as of yesterday. So I am booster training him and have been for awhile to prepare him for outgrowing that harness.

I started booster training with me riding in the back seat next to him and guiding him. Now he does awesome. That being said, As a rule he is going to ride harnessed so I can let my 8.5 yr old ride in HBB unless just driving to school.

I hope I did not confuse you too much with my post in the other thread!!

D&L's-mommy · Jan 18, 2013

Baylor said:
Just so you know, When I came here I was going to harness until my kids left for college. I was really freaked out by the video about a child who was killed when riding in a booster. I did not know enough then to consider all the mistakes that were made. She was too young and too small for a booster. But it scared me stupid. I could only hear HARNESS HARNESS HARNESS in my head.

The longer I was here the more some incredibly patient Techs took the time to explain to me the ins and outs of boostering correctly and harnessing appropriately. I got it.

If I had a 4.5 yr old that was of average size, I would harness. I am harnessing My almost 5 yr old now in a FR85. He is on top slot as of yesterday. So I am booster training him and have been for awhile to prepare him for outgrowing that harness.

I started booster training with me riding in the back seat next to him and guiding him. Now he does awesome. That being said, As a rule he is going to ride harnessed so I can let my 8.5 yr old ride in HBB unless just driving to school.

I hope I did not confuse you too much with my post in the other thread!!

This is me. She's doing really, really well with booster training, mostly because she wants to ride in a booster

. But she doesn't (always)complain when she has to sit in her nautilus. I guess I'm trying to make up for my past car seat safety sins (ffing at 14mths, and 10mths, dr said it was ok, I didn't know anybetter, my DS was boostering at 4years, maybe younger) but I didn't know better, so maybe I'm overcompensating. I guess if it makes me feel better, and she's not uncomfortable then she can stay harnessed. I just think about that neck loading thing and that scares me too...maybe I"m just crazy,lol
You didn't confuse me, I just didn't want to take away from you expressing your concerns

Baylor · Jan 18, 2013

Nah... Don't sweat it. I completely get that panicky feeling. It will get better. Really it will..

MyTwoSons · Jan 18, 2013

D&L's-mommy said:
I guess it depends on the exact circumstance of the crash? Perhaps for one type of crash a seat belt may be *safer*, another type of crash a harness *may* be safer?

This is my conundrum. It *seems* in my mind that in a side impact a harnessed seat might be safer, but in a front impact a booster might be safer (considering the child is appropriate size, weight, maturity for either and the seat is used properly). Can sometimes make for a hard choice. Not that I am there quite yet though...I know my 5 yr old doesn't have the impulse control to stay seated properly 100% of the time.

KaysKidz · Jan 18, 2013

When we first starting booster training, my twins did GREAT. After a few months, they got lazy, fidgety etc. Especially Ricky. At 5yrs and 7mo, I reharnessed him. He just couldn't keep in the proper position and constantly reminding him to sit right was exhausting and distracting. He's happy as a clam in his new Diono RXT. Except for the fact that he's next to his sister now and 'she touched his car seat'. LOL

D&L's-mommy · Jan 19, 2013

MyTwoSons said:
This is my conundrum. It *seems* in my mind that in a side impact a harnessed seat might be safer, but in a front impact a booster might be safer (considering the child is appropriate size, weight, maturity for either and the seat is used properly). Can sometimes make for a hard choice. Not that I am there quite yet though...I know my 5 yr old doesn't have the impulse control to stay seated properly 100% of the time.

I'm just not sure what to think...If we're in a crash and either of my kids gets hurt then I'd spend the rest of my life wishing I had done something different (whether it'd be booster or harness)

KaysKidz said:
When we first starting booster training, my twins did GREAT. After a few months, they got lazy, fidgety etc. Especially Ricky. At 5yrs and 7mo, I reharnessed him. He just couldn't keep in the proper position and constantly reminding him to sit right was exhausting and distracting. He's happy as a clam in his new Diono RXT. Except for the fact that he's next to his sister now and 'she touched his car seat'. LOL

This is my concern too. I'm going to start babysitting my niece on Tuesday, she's only 6 weeks, and I'm worried that if the baby's in the car she'll move out of position to see the baby better. But she's also complaining that she feels squished down in the harness (even though she has vertical room) and she pushes the chest clip down just a smidge, saying that its pushing into her body (this has always been an issue with this seat, even at proper harness tension) I guess I'll just continue to allow her to try the booster for short trips around town and she how she does

MyTwoSons · Jan 19, 2013

D&L's-mommy said:
I'm just not sure what to think...If we're in a crash and either of my kids gets hurt then I'd spend the rest of my life wishing I had done something different (whether it'd be booster or harness)

I know what you mean.

Just wanted to reiterate though for others reading this thread, that my thoughts on which is safer (harness or booster) depending on type of crash is based off my own processing of things I have read about neck loads in harness and potential lateral movement in boosters...I am not a tech so I don't have any technical knowledge to base my thoughts on.

ketchupqueen · Jan 19, 2013

Using a top tether does reduce the total load of forces placed on the seat, therefore less should, theoretically, transfer to a child in a harnessed seat with than without tether. I think for older kids who are booster-ready, if a tethered harnessed seat vs. a booster isn't a wash safety-wise, with some measurements being slightly higher but some being lower and overall about the same, very small differences, then it's close to it. I think the key factor in moving to a booster HAS to be the ability to sit still 100% of the time. When sleeping, when ill, when tired, when cranky, when having a hissy fit. Has to be 100%, or it's a no-go in my car (unless the kid has outgrown all harnessed seats on the market, sigh.)

After that, I think a booster used properly or a harness used properly will protect a child excellently well in a crash. You can only do what you can do. We don't get to choose what type of crash we're in, that's ALWAYS a gamble. We don't get to choose whether it happens in the backup seat used in the carpool car, or our car with the uber-awesome SIP. We only get to choose to always buckle our kids up correctly, in an appropriate, correctly installed and used seat, and know that we did the best we could. Believe me, having lost a child (not to a crash) I have done the self-blame. The what if I had done this, that. But I had to stop, and I had to forgive myself, and I had to know what my dad told me was true: I did the best I could. Some things are not meant to be. Some crashes are not survivable. Some injuries are not preventable.

Having been in a severe crash, I can also say, I felt bad that poor Bridget broke her leg, but when I looked at what COULD HAVE happened if she'd gone by manufacturers' minimums (too young to sit properly in a booster; she was asleep; if she'd been in a backless booster, her head could have gone into the side of the car, and what if the belt wasn't positioned right?) I felt so lucky that this was ALL that happened, and knew I'd done my best, and was elated she was ALIVE.

D&L's-mommy · Jan 19, 2013

MyTwoSons said:
D&L's-mommy said:

I'm just not sure what to think...If we're in a crash and either of my kids gets hurt then I'd spend the rest of my life wishing I had done something different (whether it'd be booster or harness)

I know what you mean.

Just wanted to reiterate though for others reading this thread, that my thoughts on which is safer (harness or booster) depending on type of crash is based off my own processing of things I have read about neck loads in harness and potential lateral movement in boosters...I am not a tech so I don't have any technical knowledge to base my thoughts on.

Click to expand...

I wonder if a tech could tell us if there's been any tests that show statistically which is safer (booster or harness) for a child that fits and uses both properly, including neck load comparisons and amount of movement)

Athena · Jan 19, 2013

D&L's-mommy said:
I just think about that neck loading thing and that scares me too

I completely understand. When I first read about it here, I was freaked out. In the end, I still feel more comfortable extended harnessing for my kids. I am more concerned with the possibility of them being out of position in boosters or not fitting well when smaller. I have a 4.5 yo and am not even considering boostering her. I feel she's way too young to booster, she still falls asleep, and she is totally happy harnessed. But not all kids are the same and it's a personal decision and not one made easily. [hugs]

D&L's-mommy said:
I'm just not sure what to think...If we're in a crash and either of my kids gets hurt then I'd spend the rest of my life wishing I had done something different (whether it'd be booster or harness)

:yeahthatsad:

bubbaray · Jan 19, 2013

The neck load issue is exactly why I booster my children at 5/40. It's a parental decision.

When I'm asked as a tech, I tell parents there is no clear answer BUT in Sweden, where they have stellar child safety stats, they go firstly from ERF (4-5) to booster due to neck loads.

It's definitely a YMMV thing.

I also personally think that children (over 5/40) are safER in a properly used booster than an improperly installed/used harnessed seat. And I think socially they need to know how to sit properly in a booster for carpooling.

TechnoGranola · Jan 19, 2013

Transport Canada did a study where the conclusion was that neck loads were increased but not necessarily overall injury. So that harnessing was likely beneficial for the 4-6 aged camp at least. I didn't reread the study so I may have remembered the conclusion incorrectly. Hopefully someone else has time to read it.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0258-O.pdf

D&L's-mommy · Jan 19, 2013

ketchupqueen said:
Using a top tether does reduce the total load of forces placed on the seat, therefore less should, theoretically, transfer to a child in a harnessed seat with than without tether. I think for older kids who are booster-ready, if a tethered harnessed seat vs. a booster isn't a wash safety-wise, with some measurements being slightly higher but some being lower and overall about the same, very small differences, then it's close to it. I think the key factor in moving to a booster HAS to be the ability to sit still 100% of the time. When sleeping, when ill, when tired, when cranky, when having a hissy fit. Has to be 100%, or it's a no-go in my car (unless the kid has outgrown all harnessed seats on the market, sigh.)

After that, I think a booster used properly or a harness used properly will protect a child excellently well in a crash. You can only do what you can do. We don't get to choose what type of crash we're in, that's ALWAYS a gamble. We don't get to choose whether it happens in the backup seat used in the carpool car, or our car with the uber-awesome SIP. We only get to choose to always buckle our kids up correctly, in an appropriate, correctly installed and used seat, and know that we did the best we could. Believe me, having lost a child (not to a crash) I have done the self-blame. The what if I had done this, that. But I had to stop, and I had to forgive myself, and I had to know what my dad told me was true: I did the best I could. Some things are not meant to be. Some crashes are not survivable. Some injuries are not preventable.

Having been in a severe crash, I can also say, I felt bad that poor Bridget broke her leg, but when I looked at what COULD HAVE happened if she'd gone by manufacturers' minimums (too young to sit properly in a booster; she was asleep; if she'd been in a backless booster, her head could have gone into the side of the car, and what if the belt wasn't positioned right?) I felt so lucky that this was ALL that happened, and knew I'd done my best, and was elated she was ALIVE.

I'm sorry for your loss

bubbaray said:
The neck load issue is exactly why I booster my children at 5/40. It's a parental decision.

When I'm asked as a tech, I tell parents there is no clear answer BUT in Sweden, where they have stellar child safety stats, they go firstly from ERF (4-5) to booster due to neck loads.

It's definitely a YMMV thing.

I also personally think that children (over 5/40) are safER in a properly used booster than an improperly installed/used harnessed seat. And I think socially they need to know how to sit properly in a booster for carpooling.

so after reading all of this here's my verdict:
My concern at this time is mainly the back up seat. She has a HBB in her grandma's van, and grandma can't even figure out how to buckle it properly (she always has the shoulder belt on top of the arm rest and thinks that the lap belt is too low and wants it across their bellies

) My DS (almost 9 rides with her 2x daily and will correct her

but I want me DD to know the rules in case she needs to ride with grandma in a HBB (right now I'm transferring the nauti and it's a PITA). I think I'd feel comfortable knowing she knows the rules, then when she does outgrow the nauti harness she's already trained. But this neck load thing had me questioning a harness all together.I think I'd feel better if she was harnessed for now because she does still sleep in the car sometimes. But I'm still going to work on booster training so she's ready when the time comes. I think when her 5th birthday comes around in August we will re-evaluate (just in time for her to start Kindergarten)

Athena · Jan 19, 2013

bubbaray said:
I also personally think that children (over 5/40) are safER in a properly used booster than an improperly installed/used harnessed seat. And I think socially they need to know how to sit properly in a booster for carpooling.

Disclaimer for my post: I was assuming properly used seats (harnessed or boosters because either can be misused) in their primary car.

ketchupqueen · Jan 19, 2013

Athena said:
Disclaimer for my post: I was assuming properly used seats (harnessed or boosters because either can be misused) in their primary car.

Yeah, ditto. I absolutely agree that sometimes what's properly used is the safer (or only SAFE) choice. (That's why my kids ended up with backless boosters in my mom's tight three-across. They couldn't buckle themselves next to the Radian in the center, and my mom would do it wrong in high-backs, but did it right in backlesses. Therefore, I decided backless was safer in that situation, even though I'm usually squeamish about SIP in her little Sentra with no side airbags.)

D&L's-mommy · Jan 19, 2013

ketchupqueen said:
Yeah, ditto. I absolutely agree that sometimes what's properly used is the safer (or only SAFE) choice. (That's why my kids ended up with backless boosters in my mom's tight three-across. They couldn't buckle themselves next to the Radian in the center, and my mom would do it wrong in high-backs, but did it right in backlesses. Therefore, I decided backless was safer in that situation, even though I'm usually squeamish about SIP in her little Sentra with no side airbags.)

this is also why DD has a HBB in grandma's van. They need to move the seats out of the van when not in use, and I know they can't install a harnessed seat properly, and they think a harness should be much looser than what's safe. So I feel she's safer in a HBB, there's less of a learning curve, so they're more receptive to my information

bnsnyde · Jan 19, 2013

I moved my question to a new post. Not sure how to delete.

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