Would you rather...?

vmmatula

Member
Would you rather see a 4.5 yr old in a harnessed seat where they never ever tighten the harness enough to do any good
OR
in a hbb (since you can rely on the seat belt to retract properly)???

Not sure which scenario I'd rather encourage...My friend's 4 yr old will need a new seat when their new baby arrives in March so he'll be 4.5 then. he's a very calm, mild mannered and obedient boy but he's still a kid so my question before helping her pick a seat is which is safer in the long run. she'll have him in the back of a minivan and wants a seat he can buckle himself...which means unless i give him a secret lecture about tightening his harness and he listens, he wont be any tighter than the way his parents buckle him in now.
 
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tiggercat

New member
Brianna said:
A properly used booster would be safer than an incorrectly used harness.

Well yes, but chances are a 4.5 year old won't buckle and use the booster correctly either.
I'd try educating the parents on correct harness usage.

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vmmatula

Member
at what point is that true? the legal minimum? within the weight/height limitations of the seat? (and no, though it may be true, I promise not to recommend her 18 month old go in a booster since the harness is so loose:rolleyes:) how loose of a harness is still safer than a small child in a booster? she knows my concern for her kids but "they'll be fine" is all I hear.

so what defines properly used booster? i havent worked with boosters yet. is there more too it than proper positioning of the seatbelt on the child's body and that they sit still?
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
vmmatula said:
so what defines properly used booster? i havent worked with boosters yet. is there more too it than proper positioning of the seatbelt on the child's body and that they sit still?

Nope, that's about it. Presuming the belt fits and the child sits properly, it's fine. The "line" will vary based on kid. Some 4-year-olds will sit properly. Some won't.

Most of us like to see kids in a harness until 5, but 4 is the recommended bare minimum and I certainly wouldn't rule it out automatically. It really depends on the kid.

It's hard to give a single answer to the question without knowing HOW misused the harness is and how the child sits in a booster. Are we talking kinda loose straps and a belly clip? Are we talking crotch buckle buckled, but the rest of the kid hangs out of the harness? DOES the kid sit in a booster?
 

tiggercat

New member
LISmama810 said:
Nope, that's about it. Presuming the belt fits and the child sits properly, it's fine. The "line" will vary based on kid. Some 4-year-olds will sit properly. Some won't.

Most of us like to see kids in a harness until 5, but 4 is the recommended bare minimum and I certainly wouldn't rule it out automatically. It really depends on the kid.

It's hard to give a single answer to the question without knowing HOW misused the harness is and how the child sits in a booster. Are we talking kinda loose straps and a belly clip? Are we talking crotch buckle buckled, but the rest of the kid hangs out of the harness? DOES the kid sit in a booster?

In this situation, she indicates the child would be responsible for buckling as well as correct booster riding. I've seen how kids that age buckle up without parental direction, generally it is nowhere near "correct useage".
If the parent were going to properly buckle the kid in, at 4.5 I'd probably booster. But with the kid being completely responsible for buckling, he may well route over the armrests of a screw less turbo and leave 6in of slack in the belt, right? Add in a zippered winter coat, and i woukd argue a slightly loose harness is the lesser of two evils.

I guess what I am saying is, find out whether or not the could correctly use a booster, and teach the child how to route the belt correctly, pull tight, and sit correctly.

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YinzerMama

New member
I prefer a harnessed seat at this age for all the time use largely because of the sleeping factor.

We never mess with the harnesses on my girls' seats though. I just don't put them in clothing that is too puffy/thick to fit and we never have to move it until they grow. If you get it set once and dress appropriately, he shouldn't have to adjust it.

THey are able to put the chest clip where it belongs each time - and I can see them so I tell them to move it if they have to.
 

bubbaray

New member
Another vote for a booster being the lesser of two evils. Both of my kids could have used a booster safely at age 4.5 but neither were 40 lbs yet
 

tiggercat

New member
bubbaray said:
Another vote for a booster being the lesser of two evils. Both of my kids could have used a booster safely at age 4.5 but neither were 40 lbs yet

Could they also have buckled themselves 100% correctly without fail?

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bubbaray

New member
Yes. They learned that quickly. Depends on the vehicle of course.

I would way rather a child be in a properly used booster than an improperly installed or used harnessed seat. JMHO
 

tiggercat

New member
bubbaray said:
Yes. They learned that quickly. Depends on the vehicle of course.

I would way rather a child be in a properly used booster than an improperly installed or used harnessed seat. JMHO

You must have much more coordinated kids than mine :p I still have to check my 7 yr old because sometimes she doesn't get all the slack out at one hip.

I agree in theory, I just think it is a heck of an assumption that a 4.5 year old has the maturity and responsibility to do it all himself.

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vmmatula

Member
It's hard to give a single answer to the question without knowing HOW misused the harness is and how the child sits in a booster. Are we talking kinda loose straps and a belly clip? Are we talking crotch buckle buckled, but the rest of the kid hangs out of the harness? DOES the kid sit in a booster?

Other than actually tightening the harness, I haven't seen problems with the use of their seats. ie: they wear puffy coats and the harness straps don't compress AT ALL so probably 2-3 inches tighter would be safe...

I dont think he's been in a booster yet but knowing him...yes, I think he'll sit fine and likely, even consistently...that's what made me wonder if maybe I shouldn't be bugging her about keeping him harnessed after all since at least the seatbelt would retract on its own.
 

bnsnyde

New member
Gee, I don't know. But my daughter, who just turned 5, will yell out if her harness is not super, super tight. You can drill it into them! She can even tighten her own Radian. I can't even do that, easily, from my position. But if she pulls it toward her and tugs, she can!
 

vmmatula

Member
In this situation, she indicates the child would be responsible for buckling as well as correct booster riding. I've seen how kids that age buckle up without parental direction, generally it is nowhere near "correct useage".
If the parent were going to properly buckle the kid in, at 4.5 I'd probably booster. But with the kid being completely responsible for buckling, he may well route over the armrests of a screw less turbo and leave 6in of slack in the belt, right? Add in a zippered winter coat, and i woukd argue a slightly loose harness is the lesser of two evils.

see, this is my dilema...

I guess what I am saying is, find out whether or not the could correctly use a booster, and teach the child how to route the belt correctly, pull tight, and sit correctly.
Thanks. I'll definitely try teaching them but in the last 3 years, I've gotten nowhere...but I'll keep trying no matter which seat they choose. Maybe I'll skip mom and plan a playdate without mom:) and teach the kid on his own...he seems more trainable;)
 

tiggercat

New member
vmmatula said:
Other than actually tightening the harness, I haven't seen problems with the use of their seats. ie: they wear puffy coats and the harness straps don't compress AT ALL so probably 2-3 inches tighter would be safe...

I dont think he's been in a booster yet but knowing him...yes, I think he'll sit fine and likely, even consistently...that's what made me wonder if maybe I shouldn't be bugging her about keeping him harnessed after all since at least the seatbelt would retract on its own.

The belt doesn't just retract and pull tight by itself. Depending on the vehicle, it might tighten up a bit until it hits mild resistance, but you still have to pull it tight across the hips and feed the slack back into the retractor. You probably do this automatically with your seatbelt (at least I do) but IME kids don't do it instinctively, especially if wearing a coat.

Try this. Get in your vehicle, pull out your seatbelt part way (kids generally pull out more slack than needed when they buckle) then buckle but don't touch your seatbelt after it clicks. Is your seatbelt tight and secure? Now pretend you have armrests to buckle around and do it again miming routing the belt around the armrests, without tightening your belt at all, how much slack is in the belt now? Now put on a winter coat, and do it again. Now pretend you are 4... Proper use? Unlikely.

However, I feel like I am beating my head against a wall here, so I'll bow out of the conversation...

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vmmatula

Member
The belt doesn't just retract and pull tight by itself. Depending on the vehicle, it might tighten up a bit until it hits mild resistance, but you still have to pull it tight across the hips and feed the slack back into the retractor. You probably do this automatically with your seatbelt (at least I do) but IME kids don't do it instinctively, especially if wearing a coat.

Try this. Get in your vehicle, pull out your seatbelt part way (kids generally pull out more slack than needed when they buckle) then buckle but don't touch your seatbelt after it clicks. Is your seatbelt tight and secure? Now pretend you have armrests to buckle around and do it again miming routing the belt around the armrests, without tightening your belt at all, how much slack is in the belt now? Now put on a winter coat, and do it again. Now pretend you are 4... Proper use? Unlikely.

However, I feel like I am beating my head against a wall here, so I'll bow out of the conversation...

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No, please don't feel that way. While there may be differing opinions, I have appreciated your comments/explanation especially since, as I mentioned, I've never used boosters so to advise a friend in use of them at all is a bit crazy, other than encouraging her to learn proper use. So, thank you for explaining it to me so I can further help her if she decides to go that route.
I had been encouraging her to keep him harnessed in her primary car at least until I remembered how loose he usually is so this has all been educational to me.
 

jacqui276

New member
It might be hard to do a quick training session with a kid on how tight straps should be if they are used to them being loose. I have a never ending battling with my niece (5.5) when she is in my car because she is used to her straps being loose. I have been explaining to her for years the safety aspect in kid friendly terms and it is still a tantrum and whining for the entire car trip when I tighten them appropriately.
If the kid might be receptive to it, there is no harm in trying to educate, but don't beat yourself up if the kid is as difficult as mom to try to explain it to.

I don't have much to add on the topic of booster vs loose straps though. If the mom would buckle the kid in to the booster properly, that would probably be safer than harness straps that are hanging off of him...but if both are being used improperly, I don't think that it will be a good situation either way.
Honestly in this situation, I would try really hard to educate mom but if she won't listen there isn't a ton that you can do unfortunately other than pray and hope that they don't get in an accident.

It's frustrating when friends, even when given education, just don't care about something that we are all so passionate about.
 

vmmatula

Member
It's frustrating when friends, even when given education, just don't care about something that we are all so passionate about.


What drives me crazy is that she feeds her kids ONLY organic foods... its all I can do to not say somehting about the fact that, while I see the value in that, I place more value on doing all I can to keep them ALIVE not just keep them healthy...



Thanks for the insights everyone! Praying for the right words on this one...
 

mlohry

New member
I have a very close friend that just asked my advice on exactly this, but normally the child sits in a Nati in her vehicle. He will be going to daycare everyday and he needs a ride from preschool to daycare 1 way each day. It's only a 10 minute drive. Her son is 5 in April and is just 40lbs. She asked about a booster and I said it would be ok. I know the person that's driving him and she's very responsible and drives a newish Ody. I told her to buy a HB Turbobooster because it fits little kids well, she bought the safety surround one and told her to make sure the belts were routed properly and not hitting the neck, sitting on the hips, not the stomach and to lock the seat belt each time. I trust that both my friends will be responsible to assure all these things. I also said if it was going to snowy or icey that she install the Nati to be used. Now this is not a regular use seat, but knowing the child and that he's well behaved I felt it was a safe option that did not go against manufacture instructions.
 

Athena

Well-known member
Do you know if he'll be in a seat for which he could tighten the harness? Just another factor to consider. My 6yo cannot tighten her own harness because the angle just doesn't work. This must be so frustrating for you. I find it frustrating hearing that a 4yo is expected to be completely in charge of his own car seat needs. I want to scream, "He's only 4!" It's a wonderful thing you're doing trying to help him.

and to lock the seat belt each time.

Is this allowed for this seat/vehicle combination? I've read here that sometimes it isn't. I know you're trying to help them get the best possible situation and I think that's wonderful, so I really hope this doesn't come off as negative, but I thought if a kid needed it locked that (ideally) they shouldn't be in a booster?
 

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