News Foonf weight limit in Canada

canadiangie

New member
I hope we don't see a day where the complexities of CMVSS and Transport Canada being "stupid and sucky" means a gradual reduction in the number of new and cutting edge seats we see. Frankly I'm amazed manufacturers even bother with Canada at all sometimes -- this, if what was posted upthread is true, is a perfect example. Imagine being Clek right now. Just imagine.

Thank goodness our market share makes it worth it for them...

Assuming this is a numbers game and nothing catastrophic is going on during testing at +40lbs and +43" with the 6yo Canadian ATD, I hope our rf limit is not capped at 40lbs. What a bitter irony that would be -- our incredibly strict standards forcing a halt to something we've waited so long for. I'm not necessarily hung up on the 50lb number, but 40 versus 45 makes me take pause for sure.
 
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GeekDad

New member
mamajuls said:
But really, they haven't told everyone, they simply made a change on their website and waited for someone to notice. They didn't make their own post on FB, they didn't/haven't yet sent out an email to retailers, or an email to the consumers which have provided their email addresses for news regarding the Foonf....they simply responded to someone's question on their page. Something this important shouldn't just be discovered by perusing comments made by other's on a company's FB page. Sure they changed the stats on their website, but for those that had already pre-ordered with the assumption that they were at least getting a seat that went to 45lbs that has been quoted since the beginning of this seat, only to open it up and see 40lbs? I'd be one unhappy camper. Regardless of why the seat's limit was changed, the way they have addressed (or lack thereof) this change is what speaks volumes to me.

Exactly how I'm interpreting this right now. No announcement from the company, just owning up to the change after someone calls them out on it. Poor form again for a company that's having a lot of PR issues right now. I am one of the people who preordered in spring and has been waiting patiently, but this is the straw that's breaking the camel. I was fine spending the money on the seat when it at least matched other brands on the market, but now I don't really see the value in spending $200 more. I might be heading into E-children tomorrow and just cancel my foonf order and grab a Peg. Waiting to see if Clek can really clarify why massive sudden change.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I've sent an email to the company asking for the technical answers and I'll share what I'm able to.

I believe the 40lbs was asked about on the Facebook page because of information they gave out at a trade show in Toronto this past weekend (or it might've been the end of last week - I'm not sure which days the conference was.)

Angie - I hear you. Oh do I hear you.
 

tiggercat

New member
snowbird25ca said:
I've sent an email to the company asking for the technical answers and I'll share what I'm able to.

I believe the 40lbs was asked about on the Facebook page because of information they gave out at a trade show in Toronto this past weekend (or it might've been the end of last week - I'm not sure which days the conference was.)

Angie - I hear you. Oh do I hear you.

At babytime expo this past weekend we were quizzing them on the limits of the seat and that's where the 40lb info originally came out. In retrospect, perhaps posting on their Facebook page was unwise, however I felt that people had a right to the information. The show was open to the public, not specific to people involved in child passenger safety.

I would be interested to hear more about this if more detail comes out. Thanks for looking into it, Trudy.

Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org
 

bubbaray

New member
mamajuls said:
But really, they haven't told everyone, they simply made a change on their website and waited for someone to notice. They didn't make their own post on FB, they didn't/haven't yet sent out an email to retailers, or an email to the consumers which have provided their email addresses for news regarding the Foonf....they simply responded to someone's question on their page. Something this important shouldn't just be discovered by perusing comments made by other's on a company's FB page. Sure they changed the stats on their website, but for those that had already pre-ordered with the assumption that they were at least getting a seat that went to 45lbs that has been quoted since the beginning of this seat, only to open it up and see 40lbs? I'd be one unhappy camper. Regardless of why the seat's limit was changed, the way they have addressed (or lack thereof) this change is what speaks volumes to me.

This. Exactly this

How they have handled this, and the production delays, really reminds me of Diono/SK.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I would be interested to hear more about this if more detail comes out. Thanks for looking into it, Trudy.

I had a good talk with Clek this morning and have a very clear understanding of exactly what the issue is in regards to the testing. It's simple in some respects and yet it's something that won't be easy for the average person to understand due to the way that different parts of the standards and testing methods are "interacting" - so to speak. It also is specifically a Canadian issue that doesn't affect US testing.

There should be something more coming out from Clek later today. I have permission to share information based on our conversation, but I'll wait to say more until they've provided more information.
 

GeekDad

New member
snowbird25ca said:
I had a good talk with Clek this morning and have a very clear understanding of exactly what the issue is in regards to the testing. It's simple in some respects and yet it's something that won't be easy for the average person to understand due to the way that different parts of the standards and testing methods are "interacting" - so to speak. It also is specifically a Canadian issue that doesn't affect US testing.

There should be something more coming out from Clek later today. I have permission to share information based on our conversation, but I'll wait to say more until they've provided more information.

Trudy,
Is this interaction something that would cause the seats from Peg or Diono to have to downgrade their RF limit? Just curious as I am ready to buy the Peg now.

*Begin rant* I am about fed up with Clek and their handling of this seat and literally packing up the family to go to Edmonton to buy the Peg today. I was understanding for awhile but this situation could have been handled so much better (much like some of the others). Clek seems to be choosing not to be proactive about letting their consumers know what's going on and are constantly trying to deal with PR blowups when information gets out from other sources. It's good they clarified with you but where is the information for the rest of us? :( *End rant*
 

tiggercat

New member
snowbird25ca said:
I had a good talk with Clek this morning and have a very clear understanding of exactly what the issue is in regards to the testing. It's simple in some respects and yet it's something that won't be easy for the average person to understand due to the way that different parts of the standards and testing methods are "interacting" - so to speak. It also is specifically a Canadian issue that doesn't affect US testing.

There should be something more coming out from Clek later today. I have permission to share information based on our conversation, but I'll wait to say more until they've provided more information.

I look forward to hearing more details when they become available.

Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Trudy,
Is this interaction something that would cause the seats from Peg or Diono to have to downgrade their RF limit? Just curious as I am ready to buy the Peg now.

*Begin rant* I am about fed up with Clek and their handling of this seat and literally packing up the family to go to Edmonton to buy the Peg today. I was understanding for awhile but this situation could have been handled so much better (much like some of the others). Clek seems to be choosing not to be proactive about letting their consumers know what's going on and are constantly trying to deal with PR blowups when information gets out from other sources. It's good they clarified with you but where is the information for the rest of us? :( *End rant*

The information is coming. The difficulty with it is that it's very technical, and "deeper depth" information needs to be released in a way that doesn't just cause more confusion. It makes complete sense to me, but I have a much deeper understanding of the regulations and test methods than what most people do.

I can't tell you what will happen so far as weight limits on the other brands in the future. The response Clek got from TC could impact other brands, but I don't know how the other brands are testing so can't make a definite prediction.

What I can tell you, is that what the seats on the market are currently rated to is what they're good to right now. We've seen decreases in weight limits before and the seats which had previously been available with higher weight limits remained on the market. There was a period of time when people purposefully shopped for older dates of manufacture in an attempt to get the higher rf'ing weight limits. Seems like such an odd concept now in light of the weights we see on current seats, but there is one instance I recall of someone being ecstatic to find a seat that was 5yrs old because it let her keep her young 30lb toddler rf'ing when no seats being made at the time were rated above 30lbs rf'ing.

I stand behind Clek on this. While I understand the frustration that has been faced by the families waiting for the seat, the company is trying hard to be transparent. I think that part of the PR problem being seen happens because they're honest when questions are asked of them - even if it's info that has just become known that day. And because of the internet age we live in, answering someone's question gives that someone opportunity to post on the internet before the company even has time to prepare a media release. Personally I appreciate that they give the honest answers as soon as they know about it rather than hiding it while a media release is prepared. I can appreciate that that makes it more difficult for the parents who see the immediate information before it is released officially though.

I've had interactions with multiple companies over the years, and there is a reason why I support Clek's efforts. The responsiveness and honesty that exists at a management and ownership level is commendable. I know that things were very well planned on the release of the Foonf and then the unexpected happened. Companies can't plan for the unexpected unfortunately. This doesn't help the parents who have been waiting and understandably leaves people with questions and doubts, but on the incredibly positive side, the public has been more involved in the development and tweaking of this seat than any other seat that I'm aware of.

PR bumps happen... delays happen. But underneath it all, we have a company who is willing to say sorry, own their part in delays while protecting the suppliers who caused the delay, seek clarification when something is unclear, and change things on their product due to clarification from the government - even when it upsets people. Their commitment to making a good, quality product, even at the expense of short term PR problems, is unique. It is much harder to say no to somebody, or to tell them that information has changed, than it is to try and push forward without making changes.

That being said, feel free to vent and rant. I can appreciate the frustration that families have faced as they've waited for the release of the seat, and I get that this is "one more thing." Just know that the company is trying to be as honest, transparent, and responsive as possible, and that's very hard to do in this period of time where customers have high expectations and the flow of information from mouth to internet is so fast. When the nature of the information being shared is more complex than what most people have the base knowledge to understand, that makes it even more difficult. And this is what has been run in to in this case.
 

GeekDad

New member
snowbird25ca said:
The information is coming. The difficulty with it is that it's very technical, and "deeper depth" information needs to be released in a way that doesn't just cause more confusion. It makes complete sense to me, but I have a much deeper understanding of the regulations and test methods than what most people do.

I can't tell you what will happen so far as weight limits on the other brands in the future. The response Clek got from TC could impact other brands, but I don't know how the other brands are testing so can't make a definite prediction.

What I can tell you, is that what the seats on the market are currently rated to is what they're good to right now. We've seen decreases in weight limits before and the seats which had previously been available with higher weight limits remained on the market. There was a period of time when people purposefully shopped for older dates of manufacture in an attempt to get the higher rf'ing weight limits. Seems like such an odd concept now in light of the weights we see on current seats, but there is one instance I recall of someone being ecstatic to find a seat that was 5yrs old because it let her keep her young 30lb toddler rf'ing when no seats being made at the time were rated above 30lbs rf'ing.

I stand behind Clek on this. While I understand the frustration that has been faced by the families waiting for the seat, the company is trying hard to be transparent. I think that part of the PR problem being seen happens because they're honest when questions are asked of them - even if it's info that has just become known that day. And because of the internet age we live in, answering someone's question gives that someone opportunity to post on the internet before the company even has time to prepare a media release. Personally I appreciate that they give the honest answers as soon as they know about it rather than hiding it while a media release is prepared. I can appreciate that that makes it more difficult for the parents who see the immediate information before it is released officially though.

I've had interactions with multiple companies over the years, and there is a reason why I support Clek's efforts. The responsiveness and honesty that exists at a management and ownership level is commendable. I know that things were very well planned on the release of the Foonf and then the unexpected happened. Companies can't plan for the unexpected unfortunately. This doesn't help the parents who have been waiting and understandably leaves people with questions and doubts, but on the incredibly positive side, the public has been more involved in the development and tweaking of this seat than any other seat that I'm aware of.

PR bumps happen... delays happen. But underneath it all, we have a company who is willing to say sorry, own their part in delays while protecting the suppliers who caused the delay, seek clarification when something is unclear, and change things on their product due to clarification from the government - even when it upsets people. Their commitment to making a good, quality product, even at the expense of short term PR problems, is unique. It is much harder to say no to somebody, or to tell them that information has changed, than it is to try and push forward without making changes.

That being said, feel free to vent and rant. I can appreciate the frustration that families have faced as they've waited for the release of the seat, and I get that this is "one more thing." Just know that the company is trying to be as honest, transparent, and responsive as possible, and that's very hard to do in this period of time where customers have high expectations and the flow of information from mouth to internet is so fast. When the nature of the information being shared is more complex than what most people have the base knowledge to understand, that makes it even more difficult. And this is what has been run in to in this case.

Thanks for some of the clarification. I have always given Clek the benefit of the doubt for the last 3 delays but this downgrade is much harder to swallow. It wasn't an instantaneous thing that info got onto the net. They made a change to their website without telling anyone and were telling people, answering questions at this show Natalie was at. Their reps knew the info, the website was changed, therefore my reasoning is there was sufficient time to prepare statement to tell the general public. Especially for a change of this magnitude, not being prepared is a mistake.
 

clek

New member
Thank you Trudy for responding. I am trying to get up to speed here and will attempt to answer any questions that have not been addressed.

Wrt to the comments about our handling of this situation, we were informed on Friday about this interpretation and responsibly told our reps that morning, so they could adjust on the fly at the show and we could begin to pull together our internal, retailer and consumer communication. We were in the process of letting our employees and retailers know and the question came up on FB, to which we answered honestly. I'm at a loss for how that is deceitful. If we were deceitful, we wouldn't have answered the question.
 

tiggercat

New member
I see no deceit at all, you have been nothing but honest. It might have helped if the rep had mentioned that there would be a statement forthcoming. I feel bad for bringing it up publicly and would have waited for an official notification had I understood the whole situation. For that I apologize.

Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org
 

clek

New member
ERF seats have historically been tested with the 3YO ATD. To my knowledge, NHTSA does not have a test procedure for the 6YO ATD rear-facing. Because of the lack of a test procedure for the 6YO ATD rear facing, it is up to the manufacturer to determine how they choose to evaluate the seat for ERF.

We elected to test our seats rear-facing with the 6YO ATD, so that we could evaluate both structural integrity AND biomechanical performance, even though it is not required, and we PASS BOTH. We evaluate rebound (this is only specific to Canada) using the 3YO ATD, where the seated height is more in line with the use parameters of the seat.

Because we were testing with the 6YO ATD to evaluate the higher weight, which is 52lb, we decided to raise the max weight from 45lb to 50lb to accommodate heavier children under 4 (rather than leave it on the table). Unfortunately, when we sought clarification on the issue, we were informed that the regulation in Canada is interpreted differently than it is in the US and requires seats to be certified with the 6YO ATD (including the rebound requirement).
 

TechnoGranola

Forum Ambassador
Samantha @ Clek has added a comment to the Facebook thread in the last hour which clarifies the testing. What I did learn from her comment was that, the height of a child absolutely can affect how the seat performs RF. It will rebound more with a taller child. Thus, when a manufacturer puts a RF height limit on a seat, I will follow it and NOT go by the 1" from top of shell rule.

That being said, I've always been one for following the RF height limits. In cases like the Complete Air where the Canadian RF limit is 36" I think it is, and the U.S. is 40", I'm guessing the seat doesn't pass our rebound standards at the U.S. limits. So I'd definitely not go higher, nor would I go to 1" to top of shell just because it's tall.

And yes there are different torso heights, and hopefully there is some leeway in torso height for those overall RF height limits.
 

TechnoGranola

Forum Ambassador
One more thing, this confirms to me that the seat will never be certified to a higher weight RF unless something changes in the seat or the regulations. And unfortunately this is what someone at Clek told a friend of mine yesterday when she called. She was told that the seat passed but would need new labelling and that would delay the launch so they would launch it at 40# and then get updated labels later.

She also inquired about not being able to use only one recline position rear-facing and was told they were "applying to use the other 2". Huh? I have no idea what that means. It either passes the rebound test more upright or it doesn't, and surely they would have tested it already due to Canadians only being able to use it with the ARB and thus in the most reclined position (ARB not usable in 2 more upright positions).

I appreciate the forwardness of Clek and haven't been bothered by the delays like others have. I'm happy we got to hear about all these things along the way and try out prototypes, etc. I am only disappointed that the weight limit has been reduced to 40# when I thought it would be 45# minimum; I understand why it was done but I'm not happy about it. ;) I don't want fancy FF crumple zones, I just want to RF my child to booster age. :ROTFLMAO: I am bothered that their is inconsistencies in the info being passed along as I know this bothered my friend enough to cancel her Foonf order that she paid for in full and order the Peg.
 

clek

New member
There was a comment made about RF vs. FF and the design priority of our seat.

We designed Foonf for best practice rear-facing, which is until the child turns 4 (Sweden). It features an anti-rebound bar for improved RF and side-impact performance in all installation modes because rear-tethering can NOT be used to certify a product under compliance, nor is it widely-acceptable use by vehicle manufacturers, which greatly reduces its use by the general public.

We designed Foonf to provide similar safety in a forward-facing position for the older child. There have been some comments on this thread discounting the benefit of REACT system and focusing on the ERF. The REACT system takes so much force out of collision that the biomechanical performance in FF is better than in RF for the 6YO ATD and nearly identical for the 3YO ATD.

Given that the majority of the public doesn't even RF until 2, this is a pretty significant development in safety technology as it improves the safety of the FF child (and was the primary focus of the seat), while at the same time provides optimal safety for ERF until the child turns 4.
 

arctic-owl

New member
So the foonf does NOT pass the anti-rebound testing in Canada with the 6yo model?
I'm guessing Diono an Peg Peregos 45lb model seats did however as there is no height limit either? (not sure about the Peg but I'm sure for the radians.) I'll call Diono tomorrow to be sure.
 

clek

New member
One more thing, this confirms to me that the seat will never be certified to a higher weight RF unless something changes in the seat or the regulations. And unfortunately this is what someone at Clek told a friend of mine yesterday when she called. She was told that the seat passed but would need new labelling and that would delay the launch so they would launch it at 40# and then get updated labels later.

She also inquired about not being able to use only one recline position rear-facing and was told they were "applying to use the other 2". Huh? I have no idea what that means. It either passes the rebound test more upright or it doesn't, and surely they would have tested it already due to Canadians only being able to use it with the ARB and thus in the most reclined position (ARB not usable in 2 more upright positions).

I appreciate the forwardness of Clek and haven't been bothered by the delays like others have. I'm happy we got to hear about all these things along the way and try out prototypes, etc. I am only disappointed that the weight limit has been reduced to 40# when I thought it would be 45# minimum; I understand why it was done but I'm not happy about it. ;) I don't want fancy FF crumple zones, I just want to RF my child to booster age. :ROTFLMAO: I am bothered that their is inconsistencies in the info being passed along as I know this bothered my friend enough to cancel her Foonf order that she paid for in full and order the Peg.
Never say never. What this does is confirm that in Recline Position 3 with the ARB, which is how the seat was tested and designed to be used, the seat will not be rated higher than 40lb unless TC changes their interpretation. What your friend was probably told is that we are investigating other installation modes, a higher rebound bar, or other ideas that may allow for this in the near future that we could provide an addendum for after launch. We just did not want to delay any further because of this information.
 

murphydog77

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
<snip>

I've had interactions with multiple companies over the years, and there is a reason why I support Clek's efforts. The responsiveness and honesty that exists at a management and ownership level is commendable. I know that things were very well planned on the release of the Foonf and then the unexpected happened. Companies can't plan for the unexpected unfortunately. This doesn't help the parents who have been waiting and understandably leaves people with questions and doubts, but on the incredibly positive side, the public has been more involved in the development and tweaking of this seat than any other seat that I'm aware of.

PR bumps happen... delays happen. But underneath it all, we have a company who is willing to say sorry, own their part in delays while protecting the suppliers who caused the delay, seek clarification when something is unclear, and change things on their product due to clarification from the government - even when it upsets people. Their commitment to making a good, quality product, even at the expense of short term PR problems, is unique. It is much harder to say no to somebody, or to tell them that information has changed, than it is to try and push forward without making changes.

<snip>

Exactly, Trudy. I've been online with my head in carseats for over 11.5 years now and this is the first time I think I can say that a carseat company has been so transparent and truthful with their communication. With the advent of Facebook, companies can't sneeze without someone commenting about it on their walls. Clek knew this was going to be a highly anticipated carseat for a lot of safety-minded parents, so they wanted to get word out about it. Unfortunately there were delays along the way. It happens. You never hear about them from other companies because they only release their products when the products are ready to ship. All the design, tweaking, delaying, etc., has already been done.

<snip>

Given that the majority of the public doesn't even RF until 2, this is a pretty significant development in safety technology as it improves the safety of the FF child (and was the primary focus of the seat), while at the same time provides optimal safety for ERF until the child turns 4.

We have to admit we're a pretty unique group of parents here who keep our kids rf until they can do their multiplication tables ;). We know that's not the norm and can we really expect a company, any company, not just Clek, to design a product to service a very small minority? The more we teach, preach, and demonstrate best practice, the more ERF will catch on for sure. But it has taken 12 for the general public (since my ds was born) to even get the notion that they should rf their kids to age 2. Clek has to make a profit on this seat or they'll not be able to continue producing it, so building a carseat that fits the majority of kids is what they have to do to survive.
 

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