Cargo tie downs as TAs

Spam

New member
I know some car manufacturers have approved tie downs for top tethers as well, but what about those that don't? I've been asked the "but why?" question and I don't really have answer other than "it says so". What is the danger of using a cargo tie down as a ta? I'm thinking it would fail and possibly cause a projectile? What's the worst that can happen?

What makes using a cargo tie down as TA a no-no and not parental choice? It's parental choice to continue using top anchors beyond stated weight llimits, go above stated height limits, etc. I know cargo tie downs aren't meant to hold a ton of weight, but are TAs going to hold beyond stated weight limits? I thought the consenus was that it could fail but likely had already done it's job, how would a cargo tie down be any different?

I've done google-ing and cannot find anything on dangers of using cargo tie downs as top anchors. Only how important top tethering is. Insight please.
 
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lovemy2kidstw

New member
You bring up a great point. I have also wondered if you aren't supposed to tether to cargo hooks, but you are supposed to use them to hold down cargo. Usually the cargo would weigh more than the seat & child. If the cargo hooks can't take crash forces, then will they really help hold down the cargo?
 

canadiangie

New member
The hardware itself likely isn't as strong. Some cargo hooks are merely a thin piece of metal. Some are thicker, but then when you look at the actual hardware setup it presents as.. sort of flimsy, or at least that's my perception in most cases.

The actual installation of the hardware is likely more superficial -- through maybe one layer of metal type thing. In my mind's eye I can just see a cargo anchor flying on impact with very little crash force, because it was only ever drilled through a thin superficial layer of the floor.

I don't think cargo tie downs are that strong. It wouldn't surprise me at all if most failed with a moderate to heavy load of cargo. I know in my vehicle the cargo tie downs are plastic coated thin rectangular loops affixed to the sidewalls of my cargo space. The design, appearance, angle of installation, etc just screams 'please don't consider me all that strong, I'm just here for looks, mostly'.
 

Spam

New member
hmm, I've seen a lot that appear strong. So it would likely fail? and send a projectile? Just think of all the suvs and vans out there that only have on ta in the third row or none at all, and if cargo tie downs were utilized as tas what would happen? Is it going to cause severe damage to the child? Or is it likely going to pull through plastic interiors of vehicles causing damage?

Just as an example we have a 00 Durango, behind the third row cargo tie downs are not usable as tas (and no I've never used them as that) but in a 01 Durango they are approved, what changed? They look exactly the same, feel the the same, etc.

It just really sucks that car manufacturers only put in a few TAs, especially in the larger vehicles where it makes more sense to have TAs outboard in the back as oppossed to the center position that most seem to use. I can see a lot of parents using them, and I've read that somewhere online many are used as TAs even when "not allowed" so what would happen if they were in accident?
 

cso1997

Active member
This issue is annoying to me also. I really want a tether anchor on the drivers side third row for a forward facing seat but there is only one on the passenger side. BUT I am using that position already to LATCH an Oobr. Annoys me all the time and makes seat placement a lot more challenging. I wish manufacturers cared more about car seat installations!! How expensive could it really be to put LATCH in every single position?
 

mama23boyz

New member
Ugh, I agree with manufacturers putting them in every spot! I have a nice large yukon xl with only one ta 3rd row & only 2 complete LATCH! Ridiculous!!! I used to use the cargo anchors in my explorer as TA before I knew better...:( The ones in the yukon seem very strong, but I don't use them...just wish I could!! :rolleyes:
 

YinzerMama

New member
We had a thing in our old sienna (driver's side) which I think would have been an excellent tether spot... but was told it was a no-go. It was solid welded steel. I think to hold the 3rd row stowed?

I agree they should put more tether spots in. Forget lower anchors. I feel like a moron because I spent so many years scared of a seat belt install. Seat belt installs are SO easy. But give me more tethers. Stick metal welded rods all over the van. Or car. Or whatever. If you have to pick between the lower anchors and the tethers give me the tethers. Give me a top tether in EVERY spot, and lower anchors only where the seat belt is in the ceiling.

(Why the ceiling? Because we have a 2012 Odyssey and had the baby in with a seat belt in the middle last night and my daughter in the driver side rear corner pocket couldn't see the DVD screen. This was a one time thing but really makes you wonder who is asleep at the wheel while designing cars...)

I think I missed my calling. I majored in social history and psychology. Clearly vehicle design is where I belong.
 

manitobamimi

New member
We had a thing in our old sienna (driver's side) which I think would have been an excellent tether spot... but was told it was a no-go. It was solid welded steel. I think to hold the 3rd row stowed?

I have a 2012 Toyota Sienna which we purchased 7 months ago. I'm from Canada, so all forward facing carseats need to be top tethered. I spoke to my vehicle dealership about possibly retrofitting two extra top tethers in the third row and was told that they would look into it for me. When we came to pick up our vehicle we were told by the dealership that we were indeed allowed to use those welded steel hooks that keep the 3rd row seats stowed as top tether anchors. They were even willing to show me in one of their mechanic's manuals where it said it was allowed. Just out of curiosity who told you it was a no-go, I wonder who is right - the person who told you it was not allowed or the salesperson at the dealership. I didn't take a look at the manual, but he was more than willing to pull it out for me, to prove to me that it could be used, so I don't think he was bull shitting me. I'm really kicking myself for not actually looking at it now, since i seem to be the only person that was told it was okay to use them. I'm reluctant to actually use them, just in case the guy was wrong.
 

jess71903

Ambassador
mama23boyz said:
Ugh, I agree with manufacturers putting them in every spot! I have a nice large yukon xl with only one ta 3rd row & only 2 complete LATCH! Ridiculous!!! I used to use the cargo anchors in my explorer as TA before I knew better...:( The ones in the yukon seem very strong, but I don't use them...just wish I could!! :rolleyes:

You may have been right to use them in the Explorer. I know my '06 cargo hooks doubled as tether anchors and I think the same was true for my '02, although it was pre-kids so I may be wrong.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Car-Seat.Org
 

canadiangie

New member
You may have been right to use them in the Explorer. I know my '06 cargo hooks doubled as tether anchors and I think the same was true for my '02, although it was pre-kids so I may be wrong.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Car-Seat.Org

They did in my 03. I thought of them more as TA's that could also be used as cargo hooks, though.
 

canadiangie

New member
I have a 2012 Toyota Sienna which we purchased 7 months ago. I'm from Canada, so all forward facing carseats need to be top tethered. I spoke to my vehicle dealership about possibly retrofitting two extra top tethers in the third row and was told that they would look into it for me. When we came to pick up our vehicle we were told by the dealership that we were indeed allowed to use those welded steel hooks that keep the 3rd row seats stowed as top tether anchors. They were even willing to show me in one of their mechanic's manuals where it said it was allowed. Just out of curiosity who told you it was a no-go, I wonder who is right - the person who told you it was not allowed or the salesperson at the dealership. I didn't take a look at the manual, but he was more than willing to pull it out for me, to prove to me that it could be used, so I don't think he was bull shitting me. I'm really kicking myself for not actually looking at it now, since i seem to be the only person that was told it was okay to use them. I'm reluctant to actually use them, just in case the guy was wrong.


I'm sure he didn't think he was BS'ing you.

But Toyota has made it pretty clear that there is one, and one only, in the 3rd row of current gen Siennas. I wouldn't use anything but an approved tether anchor. Just my 02 cents. :eek:
 

cso1997

Active member
Forget lower anchors. I feel like a moron because I spent so many years scared of a seat belt install. Seat belt installs are SO easy.

I take it that you don't use a lot of boosters that LATCH ;). You are left with putting one of your littles in the third row and a big in a booster in the second. Trust me, my wanting more LATCH has NOTHING to do with seatbelt installs. I just don't want to put DD3 or 4 in the third row.
 
V

VanIsleMommy

Guest
my 20 pound min pin pulled a cargo hook right out of the car, they are often not much more significant than a coat hanger thickness of plastic or wire.

cargo hooks have not been crash tested, top anchors have.
 

Spam

New member
So in the Toyota, where it's welded to the vehicle what could possibly happen if you used it as TA? What's the absolute worst thing that's going to happen in a crash? I just can't imagine something catastrophic happening from using it, if anything it seems like it would work like a TA. I completely understand not wanting to use it because it isn't a stated TA and ya know that's a no-no, but why?

A lot of manufacturers of both car seats and cars, have stated TA limits, some as low as what 40lbs? Yet most will continue using a TA beyond that stated limit. And then the FR85 requires top tether beyond 65lbs but most vehicles actually have a much lower limit for the top anchors so you're supposed to follow the car seat manufacturer or the automobile manufacturer? DS1 rides in a prosport, manual states tt use must be discontinued at 52lbs, he's 55.5 lbs, it's still top tethered, I can't bring myself to unhook it. If we were in a crash what's the likely hood that head excursion is going to be worse by using the TA?

I absolutely don't understand LATCH, it was meant to make car seat installs easier, yet they have low weight limits, aren't installed in every position, and what they are now changing them so the limits will be even lower? Makes sense.. not. I rarely use latch to install. Sometimes I wish I could, but ds1 is over the limits and I usually have seats next to each other.
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
I made a parental choice to use the cargo anchor in my Armada as a TA. The angle was perfect and the cargo anchor had a 100# weight limit stated in the manual, the attachment of the cargo anchor was even within the specs for a suitable place to add a HDTA, and the kiddo/seat combination was one that could be used without a tether at all. I figured it might help, and it wasn't going to be worse than none at all. Later, I used it to tether a booster that allowed tethering.

If it would have been one of those flimsy hooks you see in other cars, I would have made a different choice.
 

manitobamimi

New member
I'm sure he didn't think he was BS'ing you.

But Toyota has made it pretty clear that there is one, and one only, in the 3rd row of current gen Siennas. I wouldn't use anything but an approved tether anchor. Just my 02 cents. :eek:

LOL I'm sure he didn't think he was BSing me either, but I could tell that he thought, I thought, he was, which is why he checked it out for me and probably why he was so adamant on showing me the "manual" that said it was fine. So if its not allowed what is this "manual", that he's talking about?? I'm kicking myself for not looking at it!!! Are there any other Toyota vehicles that allow top tethering to those types of anchors that he could have possibly confused with the Sienna? I haven't used any top anchor in the 3rd row except for the actual one, but oh how I wish I could, especially now that i have to use LATCH to install DD's Radian. Bleh!
 

VoodooChile

New member
You may have been right to use them in the Explorer. I know my '06 cargo hooks doubled as tether anchors and I think the same was true for my '02, although it was pre-kids so I may be wrong.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Car-Seat.Org

I think I remember our '00 Mountaineer having cargo hooks doubling as TAs too.
 

kam1011

New member
I've often wondered this and actually thought about posting this myself this morning! So why is it better to NOT tether than to hook to a cargo hook? I'm thinking if the cargo hook helps, then great, and if not, we're equal to not tethering. Is there something in the laws of physics that makes the seat worse off?
 

Spam

New member
I've often wondered this and actually thought about posting this myself this morning! So why is it better to NOT tether than to hook to a cargo hook? I'm thinking if the cargo hook helps, then great, and if not, we're equal to not tethering. Is there something in the laws of physics that makes the seat worse off?

exactly! you can just word it much better than I :)
 

Mercuria

Active member
What's done with tethers when not in use? Perhaps they're worried about the hook being flung forward in an accident and hitting the child with excessive force.

No idea on the more substantial tie downs, though. Probably just hasn't been tested.
 

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