(Final Update #12)(UPDATE 7 & MORE Q's)Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

(Final Update in #12) Update in #7 & More Questions
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Hello, I feel like I should probably know the answer to this, but I don't remember small buses being covered in the tech class (of course I could be wrong).

Question is should I allow my 3yr old (32 pounds 36 inches) ride on a small bus for his preschool field trip. I talked with the teacher and car seats will not be installed in the bus. I also checked out the buses website and it states that all passengers must wear a seat belt during the ride (I don't know if they have lap and should belts or just lap belts). I remember learning about compartmentalization in tech class, however I thought that was for big buses. Does compartmentalization also apply to small buses when you must wear a seat belt? Would a 3yr old be safe in this situation? Does anyone have any links with more info on small buses?

Here is a picture of the bus I got from their website (with company name painted over)

Thanks!

Re: Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

Are you sure they unwilling to install your own CR or they just aren't doing it as a rule of thumb?

Re: Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

NHTSA's recommendation for kids > 1 year/20 lbs. but < 40 lbs. is to use some form of harnessed seat.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/buses/busseatbelt/page03.htm

So this would seem to apply for your 3-year-old. My understanding is that compartmentalization isn't adequate protection for smaller children. In addition, the smaller buses can't absorb as much of the crash forces as a larger buses.

Since this bus does have seatbelts, you should be able to install your carseat, though in my (limited) experience it can sometimes be challenging due to the design of the belts. I had the same question as the previous poster -- is the school's position that you MAY NOT install a carseat, or just that they were not planning on doing so? Either way, I'd be curious to understand how they think kids would be safe in this arrangement.

This online briefing from Safe Kids also has a fairly thorough treatment of school bus transportation:
http://www.safekidswebinars.org/Bus101_SchoolBusModule2011-11.pdf

Re: Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

4boysmom said:

Are you sure they unwilling to install your own CR or they just aren't doing it as a rule of thumb?

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I am not sure about that, will need to ask the teacher. However, I should have mentioned above that it is the towns bus so I think it will be dropping the kids off at the field trip and having other passengers in between. I also would need to install 3 CR because I take two of DS's cousins to Preschool. I just don't picture the teacher or parents being happy about me taking the time to install CRs.

I would be happy to drive the kids to the field trip if it is not safe for the 3yr olds to be on small bus with seat belts.That is still my main question, is it safe or not.

Re: Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

cantabdad said:

Since this bus does have seatbelts, you should be able to install your carseat, though in my (limited) experience it can sometimes be challenging due to the design of the belts. I had the same question as the previous poster -- is the school's position that you MAY NOT install a carseat, or just that they were not planning on doing so? Either way, I'd be curious to understand how they think kids would be safe in this arrangement.

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Thank you for the links. I think I need to get my big girl pants on email the teacher directly asking if I can install CR on the bus (I think/hope I will get a more informative answer than she doesn't know if it is in writing and she has time to find out). I think I will call the bus company too to see what their policy on car seats is.

If any one has info that says the seat belted 3yr old is definitely unsafe or safe on the small bus, that would be great too.

Re: Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

Based on its research, NHTSA recommends pre-school age children transported in school buses always be transported in properly secured CSRSs.

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http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/buses/guide1999/prekfinal.htm

Re: (UPDATE 7 & MORE Q's)Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

I called the Bus company and they said car seats can be installed in the bus. I received an email back from the prek director yesterday stating:

" car seats are not necessary on the Bus. In the past we have never had a parent choose to use a car seat. The Bus office has said that car seats are not necessary and the children use the lap/shoulder belts in the bus. You do have an option to bring the seats if you desire. "

Hmm, I am not sure how to respond to the part about CR not being necessary in the bus (especially from the links that you folks have posted and I read). The director also stated that the bus may or may not stay on site during the field trip. I don't like the idea of others uninstalling the seats and reinstalling.

The way I see it I have a couple of options (if anyone has opinions on these pleas post).

1). Put all three 3yr olds on Bus in lap shoulder belts (I do not feel right about this option).
2). Transport all kids under my care in the car (cousin #1 mom vetoed this and would rather her child ride the bus without a CR) (cousin #2 prefers at least a Booster on the bus for her child if not a harness seat)
3). Install harnessed seats for all 3 kids, follow bus to site and uninstall and reinstall as necessary. (I am rather pregnant at this point, due in December, and not sure of my ability do easily do this, but willing to try).
4). Transport DS in my car, Cousin #1 and #2 in boosters with lap and shoulder belts on the bus (not sure how I feel about this option since kids are 3. Also, are Boosters safe to use on a bus with lap shoulder belts).
5). Other option (I am clearly over thinking this and would love a simple solution, thanks.

Re: (UPDATE 7 & MORE Q's)Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

Boosters should not be used on the bus due to reduced head excursion room. Sounds like the best option may be to drive them in this case.

Did you find out whether the belts are adjustable, by chance?

Re: (UPDATE 7 & MORE Q's)Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

ketchupqueen said:

Boosters should not be used on the bus due to reduced head excursion room. Sounds like the best option may be to drive them in this case.

Did you find out whether the belts are adjustable, by chance?

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I remember reading that about boosters as I read more of the info from the provided links. Does no boosters also apply to the smaller bus that the kids will be transported in (picture in op)?

I don't know if the seat belts are adjustable. If they are, would it safe to put the three year olds in them alone? I do know the bus company said that the buses do not have built in harnesses.

I would prefer to drive all the kids, however at least one of the cousins parents is against that idea.

Re: (UPDATE 7 & MORE Q's)Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

What state are you in? Would it even be legal for the 3-year-olds to travel with just a seatbelt?

Most states have an exception for public transit vehicles and for standard yellow school buses that are used for pupil transportation to/from school... but neither of those are the case here.

I'm not sure why the school and your relatives aren't more supportive of CRS use, but at a minimum they should not be violating local law.

Re: (UPDATE 7 & MORE Q's)Small Bus + No CR + Mandatory SB use + 3yr old?

cantabdad said:

What state are you in? Would it even be legal for the 3-year-olds to travel with just a seatbelt?

Most states have an exception for public transit vehicles and for standard yellow school buses that are used for pupil transportation to/from school... but neither of those are the case here.

I'm not sure why the school and your relatives aren't more supportive of CRS use, but at a minimum they should not be violating local law.

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I live in a state with some of the worst child passenger safety laws, but even three year olds in my state are suppose to be in CR's. If it is true that their are exemptions for public transport in my state, then maybe the small bus the kids will ride counts as public transportation (since I think the city owns it). That is a very good question tho, and now I am curious as to the answer (will definitely try and find out the answer later).

The trip is tomorrow, so need to make a decision soon. I just finished talking to cousin #2 parent and she has given me the OK to do what I feel is safest for her child even if that means driving her myself.

At this point I am strongly considering waddling around in my pregnant state and installing all three car seats on the bus just to show how important I think it is (plus DS would love to ride on a bus). I still need to respond to the director and teacher about what I will be doing tomorrow, but I am still unsure what I will do. Whatever happens, I am very interested to see and take some pictures of the inside of the small bus and the seat belts and I am curious how adjustable they are.

The field trip was yesterday and the kids had lots of fun.... The small bus they sent ended up having lap only belts. I also discovered that the bus does have built in harnesses in at least two seating positions up front (the person I talked to had originally said they don't have them on any of their buses). I asked the driver if I could take pictures of the seat belts before the kids got on. Unfortunately she looked alarmed at my request and said no, then insisted on called her manager (perhaps I was a bit to enthusiastic about checking out the seat belts). Bus head office also said no, but did offer to have me come down sometime to look at the their seat belts and buses another day if I want (I am not sure if it was a genuine offer, but I plan on calling them later and asking to do just that).

I ended up installing car seats for the cousins on the bus, I am not entirely happy with the install but I think it was alright. My curiosity for small buses with belts has been raised and I would love to learn more.