New Freedom MA cover on ebay

elle7715 · Aug 19, 2007

I remember someone was lusting after one, can't remember who!
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-Brita...ryZ66693QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

jamesmommy · Aug 19, 2007

elle7715 said:
I remember someone was lusting after one, can't remember who!
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-Brita...ryZ66693QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Also, it doesn't look as if the belly pad is included, if it isn't, it is clearanced on this site:
http://returnsforsale.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=66

Hope this helps someone.

CandCfam · Aug 19, 2007

The belly pad is in one of the pictures, but kind of hard to see. I don't see shoulder pads though.

Patriot201 · Aug 19, 2007

I love that cover!

I don't remember shoulder pads coming with that cover. Am I just remembering incorrectly?

Melizerd · Aug 19, 2007

nope no shoulder pads there were none that came with them.

You can see the belly pad in one of the other pictures better then the main thumbnail.

jamesmommy · Aug 20, 2007

CandCfam said:
The belly pad is in one of the pictures, but kind of hard to see. I don't see shoulder pads though.

Sorry, I missed it in the pics, it's good that it comes with it. I just saw the belly pad while perusing that site. I love that design.

I wish they would come out with one of the cotton type covers like this in the Regent. I would be buying one in a heartbeat.

Morganthe · Aug 20, 2007

Oh Yikes!!

Of all the improper things to decorate with the flag, a carseat has to be one of the worst! Spit-up, spills, bodily fluids, etc.. How is this respecting our flag?

As a former service member and current military spouse, I have to speak up about how wrong & disgusting this is to see. I might be considered as taking this a bit far, but it is against the US code.
Public Law 829; Chapter 806, 77th Congress, 2nd session. Exact rules for use and display of the flag (36 U.S.C. 173-178) as well as associated sections (36 U.S.C. 171)

This code is the guide for all handling and display of the Stars and Stripes. It does not impose penalties for misuse of the United States Flag. That is left to the states and to the federal government for the District of Columbia. Each state has its own flag law.

This type of merchandise is extremely disrespectful. It's just as bad as seats and clothes done up with versions of the flag. It's not patriotic to use the flag in this manner at all

For our bottoms to rest on the flag -- has anyone thought how rude this is at all???? :thumbsdown:
My dh has repeatedly told me how much it angers him that our nation does not follow the rules in the eagerness to celebrate our flag. My POV is that companies should not profit on our desire to show allegiance

JMHO, but I'm now really really ticked off at Britax cashing in on our patriotic ferver . I wonder if they no longer market it because they were disallowed, figured out the law, or informed how wrong they were by consumers/govt. agency

176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise. (c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown. (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

Jeanum · Aug 20, 2007

Thanks for the perspective, interesting. I don't think it's exactly the flag per se but a patriotic-themed cover and liked by many. It was discontinued pretty soon after Britax introduced it. Ours faded very quickly, unfortunately.

UlrikeDG · Aug 20, 2007

Nope, it's not a flag.

amy919 · Aug 20, 2007

I can see your point, Morganthe and if it was an actual flag, I would agree with you 100%. It's not, though. It resembles a flag sure, but it's not a flag or even an actual representation of one. Doesn't that make a difference? I'm not being facetious, I'm honestly asking. I thought the rules applied only to actual flags. Or is it the principle of it? That I could understand.

Morganthe · Aug 20, 2007

What is a Flag

The flag of the United States is any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, of any size, accurate or not, that is recognized as a flag by the reasonable observer. Some argue that flags are only those items made for display as flags. However the flag code makes clear that the image of the flag sewn into fabric (as on T-shirts) or printed on paper are still considered flags: "... It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard..."

It might thought of as debatable issue, but I bet if you took this carseat cover to some sort of public demonstration and burned it, someone would be extremely upset as if you had actually desecrated the flag.

Even if it's parts representing pieces of our flag, it is still symbolic -- Otherwise Britax wouldn't have named it "Freedom". So whether or not it is a real flag or pieces of one, it is identifiable as a patriotic symbol. So it is not right that baby bottoms sit on it.
JMHO, and certainly not a legal one.

CandCfam · Aug 20, 2007

Morganthe said:
Oh Yikes!! Of all the improper things to decorate with the flag, a carseat has to be one of the worst! Spit-up, spills, bodily fluids, etc.. How is this respecting our flag?

As a former service member and current military spouse, I have to speak up about how wrong & disgusting this is to see. I might be considered as taking this a bit far, but it is against the US code.
Public Law 829; Chapter 806, 77th Congress, 2nd session. Exact rules for use and display of the flag (36 U.S.C. 173-178) as well as associated sections (36 U.S.C. 171)

This code is the guide for all handling and display of the Stars and Stripes. It does not impose penalties for misuse of the United States Flag. That is left to the states and to the federal government for the District of Columbia. Each state has its own flag law.

This type of merchandise is extremely disrespectful. It's just as bad as seats and clothes done up with versions of the flag. It's not patriotic to use the flag in this manner at all For our bottoms to rest on the flag -- has anyone thought how rude this is at all???? :thumbsdown:
My dh has repeatedly told me how much it angers him that our nation does not follow the rules in the eagerness to celebrate our flag. My POV is that companies should not profit on our desire to show allegiance

JMHO, but I'm now really really ticked off at Britax cashing in on our patriotic ferver . I wonder if they no longer market it because they were disallowed, figured out the law, or informed how wrong they were by consumers/govt. agency

176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise. (c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown. (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

Hmmm...
Thank you for your POV on that. I would say though, that this isn't a flag, more of a 'flag theme'.

I do find part of that law interesting though - the part about how the flag should not be folded: 176 d, as when my father was buried, which was honored by the V.A., they draped his coffin with a flag, which was later folded and presented to us, the family, prior to his coffin being lowered.
I would think that surely the Veteran's Administration would have known better, had it been an actual improper use of the flag.

ETA: And my uncle who was high-ranking Army, never seemed offended by that either.
Is there a differentiation of use when folded in such a manner?

amy919 · Aug 20, 2007

Morganthe said:
What is a Flag

The flag of the United States is any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, of any size, accurate or not, that is recognized as a flag by the reasonable observer. Some argue that flags are only those items made for display as flags. However the flag code makes clear that the image of the flag sewn into fabric (as on T-shirts) or printed on paper are still considered flags: "... It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard..."

It might thought of as debatable issue, but I bet if you took this carseat cover to some sort of public demonstration and burned it, someone would be extremely upset as if you had actually desecrated the flag.

Even if it's parts representing pieces of our flag, it is still symbolic -- Otherwise Britax wouldn't have named it "Freedom". So whether or not it is a real flag or pieces of one, it is identifiable as a patriotic symbol. So it is not right that baby bottoms sit on it.
JMHO, and certainly not a legal one.

Well by that definition, I'd have to say it classifies as a flag.

Morganthe · Aug 20, 2007

CandCfam said:
Hmmm...
Thank you for your POV on that. I would say though, that this isn't a flag, more of a 'flag theme'.

I do find part of that law interesting though - the part about how the flag should not be folded: 176 d, as when my father was buried, which was honored by the V.A., they draped his coffin with a flag, which was later folded and presented to us, the family, prior to his coffin being lowered.
I would think that surely the Veteran's Administration would have known better, had it been an actual improper use of the flag.

ETA: And my uncle who was high-ranking Army, never seemed offended by that either.
Is there a differentiation of use when folded in such a manner?

Yes.
The code is primarily for civillian use. Military usage comes under different customs and regulations

The Flag in Mourning (bottom of the page)
...When used to cover a casket, the flag should be placed with the union at the head and over the left shoulder. It should not be lowered into the grave.

What are the funeral protocols for a veteran who has died?
To honor the memory of their service to their country, a United States flag drapes the casket of deceased veterans. The field of blue is at the head and over the left shoulder. After Taps is played, the flag is carefully folded into the symbolic tricorner shape (see Flag Rules page). The folded flag is then presented as a keepsake to the next of kin (see below). Each branch of the Armed Forces uses its own wording for the presentation:.............

Not to beat a dead horse, perhaps I was overly drilled in this during my stint. Retreat was part of my duties for 8 years and I loved to fold the flag in the very particular manner it demands.

Basically-- Representative is the same as the flag according to the code. If it looks like a flag, has the same color and patterns of our flag, then for all intents and purposes, it's to be treated like the flag!

From the same website:

Are there penalties for violating the Flag Code?
No. The Flag Code (see below) is intended as a guide to be followed on a purely voluntary basis to insure proper respect for the flag.

Are flags on T-shirts, ties, etc., really flags?
Yes. According to the Model Flag Desecration Law, the term "flag" was defined to include any flag, standard, ensign, or color, or any representation of such made of any substance whatsoever and of any size that evidently purported to be said flag or a picture or representation thereof, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and stripes in any number, or by which the person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag of the U.S.
Source: Timeline of Flag Desecration Issues, see 1897

Therefore, a flag includes any representation of it of any substance, with stars and stripes of any number. This would include T-shirts and ties.

The Flag Code states that the flag should never be worn. (Section 8d): "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."

Is it okay to have a flag T-shirt with words written on it?
No, the flag should never be worn and no, the flag should never have marks or words written upon it. Section 8d of the Flag Code: "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel." Section 8g: "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."

How should I dispose of T-shirts with pictures of the flag on them?
Flag T-shirts are in violation of the Flag Code. Section 8d of the Flag Code (see below):

The flag should never be used as wearing apparel.
Is a picture of a flag on a T-shirt a flag? According to the language used by the Congress in proposing the flag desecration amendment, the answer is yes:

The flag of the United States is any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, of any size, accurate or not, that is recognized as a flag by the reasonable observer.
Therefore, you should retire the flag T-shirts as you would any flag that is no longer a fitting emblem for display. Section 8k of the Flag Code states:

The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

lovinwaves · Aug 20, 2007

I totally agree with Morganthe :thumbsup:

CandCfam · Aug 20, 2007

Thank you for that info.
I really had no idea, as I would suspect most people who have not been taught those specific laws would know either.

I do have a couple Old Navy tanks from the 4th of July that I will reconsider wearing again. I definitely would not ever knowingly show disrespect in such a way.

mimieliza · Aug 20, 2007

Morganthe, I agree with you. I've always been upset by merchandise splashed with our flag. It cheapens it.

I know that anyone interested in this Britax cover probably sees it as a neat way to show their patriotism, but I think that Morganthe brings up important points to consider.

ZephyrBlue · Aug 20, 2007

This is a very interesting thread. I can see both perspectives. My dh is a veteran (he served in the Gulf War), and he said that there are so many worse cases of flag desecration that he wouldn't twice about a patriotic-themed carseat cover. But I can see how some people would be more sensitive to the issue. I love hearing different perspectives on stuff like this.

UlrikeDG · Aug 20, 2007

There was a Freedom MA in my neighbor's vehicle when we were stationed in Germany. I considered getting one, but it was during a time when US military were supposed to be keeping a low profile due to anti-war protests.

It's acceptable for the same reason that a stars-n-stripes banner is acceptable to cover a table, but a flag is not. It's not a flag.

Synchro246 · Aug 20, 2007

I find it ironic that a country that prides itself on freedom & freedom of religious expression has such specific rules as to the treatment of a symbol.

I'd think user intent should have a lot to do with how offensive flag misuse is to a patriot. I'd agree that it's irritating at very least for a company to cash in on patriotism. However, when someone is truely expressing their love for their country in some way, even if it's not deemed appropriate by the US government I'm not so sure it really matters IYKWIM. :twocents:

Having said that:
I personally don't buy flag themed things (find them tacky for a variety of reasons) & I don't display a flag unless I can do it "right" (we didn't have a fourth of july flag out last year because we couldn't keep it lit overnight & DH said he wouldn't take it down nightly).

ETA-- I just noticed a flag in my avatar. It's not put away properly. I would literally think about that every time I saw it IRL. Funny how a set of arbitrary rules can get to a person.

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