News Kiddy says that the Kiddy World Plus is unsafe for sleeping children

Pixels

New member
From their FaceBook page today.
No child restraint system can offer the best possible protection to a child sitting 'Out of Position'. No matter if it is a rear-facing system, a 5point harness or an impact shield system. When the child sleeps and is lying on the impact shield or a child tilts forward in a 5point harness it is "Out of Position". If a severe accident is going to happen, no manufacturer of any of these systems can prevent this possibility and guarantee a 100% protection. No manufacturer is in the position to simulate those cases of a sleeping position. One thing also is for certain: even adults get seriously injured if they put their legs on the dashboard and thus are 'Out of Position' for example.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...&comment_id=792523&offset=8&total_comments=46

This was posted after a photo was posted by Kiddy showing a child sleeping on the shield. The child's arm is on the shield, face on the arm.
 
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Baylor

New member
I saw this last week and I am glad they are calling it out of position. I think this seat is not anything near what it promises.

There is no way a sleeping rfing child is at the same risk as a ff one out of position is there?

I
 

NicoleCPST

Senior Community Member
Baylor said:
I saw this last week and I am glad they are calling it out of position. I think this seat is not anything near what it promises.

There is no way a sleeping rfing child is at the same risk as a ff one out of position is there?

I

If I RF child is properly harnessed I find it really hard for them to be "out of position". With the Kidde seats the problem doesn't lie with the sleeping but the "out of position". A properly harnessed child, RF or FF isn't going to fall out of position. That is the whole point of the harness.

This makes me think of the Kidde seat even more now as a booster type seat.
 

creideamh

Well-known member
I think I understand what they're saying... we say head slump is perfectly fine, but is it really? Seats aren't tested with a dummy head hanging forward, right? I'm not trying to defend Kiddy, just always wondered, especially in light of those side impact videos on YouTube.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I think the issue is that they're saying that a child being out of position in their seat is no different than a child being out of position in a harness. Except that in a properly tightened harness, the kid isn't going to be out of position, period.

Also, the shield is a big invitation to put one's head down and go to sleep. Try telling a kid not to sleep on that thing.
 

Baylor

New member
I think the issue is that they're saying that a child being out of position in their seat is no different than a child being out of position in a harness. Except that in a properly tightened harness, the kid isn't going to be out of position, period.

Also, the shield is a big invitation to put one's head down and go to sleep. Try telling a kid not to sleep on that thing.


BBM. That right there!! At least in a regular harness it can be uncomfortable for them to sleep slumped forward and most kids will correct themselves. To me this is no different than sticking a big pillow in front of them and then telling them not to use it.

I think this seat is a bust. It tells parents their kids are safer ff than rfing, they are not supposed to use the big soft cushion in front of them to sleep however they are going to and many parents will at that as a plus, not anything dangerous, the shield only goes to 40lbs and its priced up there.

Sorry if I sound irritable. They lost me at "safer than rfing".
 

jeminijad

New member
I think I understand what they're saying... we say head slump is perfectly fine, but is it really? Seats aren't tested with a dummy head hanging forward, right?

I have always thought this. To me it seems clear that the head and neck starting a collison all cockeyed must be worse than upright. It is an important consideration for me with FFing seats.

I think the issue is that they're saying that a child being out of position in their seat is no different than a child being out of position in a harness. Except that in a properly tightened harness, the kid isn't going to be out of position, period.

Also, the shield is a big invitation to put one's head down and go to sleep. Try telling a kid not to sleep on that thing.

The kid could be out of position harnessed, if their head is dangling forward.

Where is the info that this totally fine? Is it just something told to parents because it isn't realistic to try 5 different FFing seats till their find one that their child stays upright asleep in? Or is it the assumption that because the head will move out of the shell in a collision anyway, starting there must not be that bad?

I did see skylinphoto's pics when she first got the KWP, but I still have trouble picturing where exactly it hits on a kid, and how much of their shoulders and above would be out of the shell if a child was sleeping on the shield.

I guess I just see this as Kiddy being more forthcoming than some other companies, rather than an admission of a fatal flaw with their product.
 

skylinphoto

New member
I wonder if this is out of position. She's propped on the sheild..but not laying her head on it and quite upright. This is normally how my dd sleeps in this seat. Upright but with her arms propped on the shield.

(Btw, they want the sheild at armpit level.)

IMG_20120804_210700.jpg


ETA: I really do love this seat. If it means "training" my dd to put her head back when sleeping, I will. Lol. This seat is perfect for my dd. I appreciate how forthcoming Kiddy is being and that they were able to admit they made a mistake saying the wrong thing.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
If I RF child is properly harnessed I find it really hard for them to be "out of position". With the Kidde seats the problem doesn't lie with the sleeping but the "out of position". A properly harnessed child, RF or FF isn't going to fall out of position. That is the whole point of the harness.

Rear-facing seats tend to be very forgiving of a lot of issues, such as keeping sleeping children in position and their head contained within the restraint. That is why they perform so well in both frontal and side impacts.

I've seen plenty of kids come into an event asleep in their front-facing harness, with their head flopped forward. It's much worse if the seat is not installed/used correctly. The energy absorbing shield on the World Plus keeps a child quite well restraint if used correctly, too. The head is still free to flop forward or to the side in either one, because it is not directly restrained.

Lacking any significant real world data, the question is whether or not there is the potential for a large increase in head excursion if a child's head starts in a "sleeping" position compared to a front-facing harness. I don't know the answer, but I doubt there's much difference either way, or even with the head starting upright, because it's going to be thrown forward anyway. It then becomes a matter of how well the torso is restrained by the shield or harness to keep the head from moving into a hard part of the interior.

For those intent on keeping their kids rear-facing until 40 pounds, I don't see that this clarification would affect your choice, anyway;-)
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
how does one really "slump" in a properly tight harness.. the head may, sure... and none of us is a fan of forward slumping... and of course, in a side crash, side slump may or may not have an effect on the outcome... but again, how do you "slump forward" in a snug harness?

I think they made their statement too broad and opened themselves up on that one.
 

RubysGirl

New member
how does one really "slump" in a properly tight harness.. the head may, sure... and none of us is a fan of forward slumping... and of course, in a side crash, side slump may or may not have an effect on the outcome... but again, how do you "slump forward" in a snug harness?

I think they made their statement too broad and opened themselves up on that one.

IDK, when my kids slump forward in their harnessed seats, it's really just their head. Their whole entire body, otherwise, is still in position. Just with their chin to their chest.
 

Baylor

New member
how does one really "slump" in a properly tight harness.. the head may, sure... and none of us is a fan of forward slumping... and of course, in a side crash, side slump may or may not have an effect on the outcome... but again, how do you "slump forward" in a snug harness?

I think they made their statement too broad and opened themselves up on that one.

This. My kids don't slump as a rule but when they do it is just the head that rolls forward not the body.
 

Evolily

New member
I don't get this. Really, I don't.

If the kid's head is on the shield, isn't that basically where it ends up IN a crash? The head isn't restrained directly, it hits the shield in a crash, so basically you are shortening the distance it travels, which to me seems like a GOOD thing, physics speaking. it's not like a booster where you'll introduce slack to the belt, right? I would like to see crash tests.

I am wondering if this is a CYA thing for seats not installed properly.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
Evolily said:
I don't get this. Really, I don't.

If the kid's head is on the shield, isn't that basically where it ends up IN a crash? The head isn't restrained directly, it hits the shield in a crash, so basically you are shortening the distance it travels, which to me seems like a GOOD thing, physics speaking. it's not like a booster where you'll introduce slack to the belt, right? I would like to see crash tests.

I am wondering if this is a CYA thing for seats not installed properly.

Unless it's a thing where, like, when uptight, the head whips forward, vs when the head is already down and sort of horizontal, and then maybe the head pulls forward, straining the neck.

Or something. Total speculation there. No idea really.

I can't see how having the head already forward would be BETTER, but it's quite possible it could be worse.
 
S

SoCalCarSeatMama

Guest
I top tether my kids ff harnessed seats to 1) limit their head excursion, and 2) to keep their heads from smashing into the seat in front of them. No matter how soft and covered those shields are on that Kiddy, I do not want my child's head guaranteed to smack it just because they fall asleep, or even in a crash when their head is in proper position! I happen to like my kids faces...not so much their mouths all the time but that is irrelevant here. :rolleyes:
 

amanny

New member
That whole Facebook page is a joke.

One mom asks if the shield is rated to 50lbs because her child is escaping her 5pt harness. What does the Kiddy rep do? Tell mom to give the child more freedom and promotes their newest booster. I will never buy from them.


ForumRunner_20120821_212537.png
 

canadiangie

New member
That whole Facebook page is a joke.

One mom asks if the shield is rated to 50lbs because her child is escaping her 5pt harness. What does the Kiddy rep do? Tell mom to give the child more freedom and promotes their newest booster. I will never buy from them.


View attachment 17809


Oh wow. That's such terrible advice to offer. :(

Did anyone add something constructive to the thread after that?
 

skylinphoto

New member
amanny said:
That whole Facebook page is a joke.

One mom asks if the shield is rated to 50lbs because her child is escaping her 5pt harness. What does the Kiddy rep do? Tell mom to give the child more freedom and promotes their newest booster. I will never buy from them.

Wow. That's awful!
 

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