Locking clips for tilting issues with infant bases and rf convertibles - let's discuss

Kecia

Admin - CPST Instructor
I didn't want to put this in the tech forum because I think everyone (not just techs) can learn and benefit from the discussion.

In the Summer edition of Tech Update from the National CPS Board there is a segment on using locking clips. The first paragraph deals with using a LC when your 3-pt vehicle seatbelt has no pre-crash locking features (and your CR has no built-in lockoff device). In these cases you need to use a LC. The second paragraph deals with using a LC as a "fix" for a tilt issue caused by a 3-pt belt with a locked switchable retractor. It states:

"Another time you might use a locking clip is when you install a rear-facing restraint with a three-point belt using a switchable retractor. Sometimes when you tighten the seat belt, the shoulder portion pulls up on the child restraint and makes it tip to one side. If it's tipping a lot when you can pass the 1" test, you can use a locking clip instead of the switchable retractor. But always try to install first with the vehicle belt features because they are usually easier to use than locking clips. Locking clips should be the last choice, not the first choice. It would be better to use the switchable retractor to obtain an install with slight tipping that passes the 1" test than to use a locking clip to achieve zero movement and no tipping. Parents and caregivers are more likely to get the install correct without a locking clip."

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?
 
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Brianna

New member
I use a locking clip in the center of my car with my Triumph rear facing because of tilting. It doesn't tilt immediately when tightening or testing for movement, but as soon as you turn left with a child in the seat it tips at least 45 degrees. I think it would be beneficial to teach parents/caregivers how to use a locking clip in case a car seat does the same in their vehicle.

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creideamh

Well-known member
I agree to an extent... it just depends on how much tipping and the parent/caregiver's ability to correctly use a LC.

I use one when I install RF seats in the center of my Prius, otherwise any seat there tips horribly when it's tight enough. But I know how to use one :p
 

lovemybabies924

New member
I have had a lot of parents come to me because the seat is installed correctly but if you bump it on the top portion it tilts.. I always say locking clip
 

Mags462

New member
I'm not a tech but i personally think a LC is a REALLY hard thing for an average consumer to use properly. I don't consider myself a car seat novice by any means and i really struggle to use it with my Radian.... which tilts in one particular position when the belt is locked.

I think if tipping is safe (which i have heard it is as long as its not extreme) i would rather just not tell people about it mainly b/c i can see them totally misusing it. I'd rather people install their seat properly and have it tip to one side slightly than have it perfectly straight but not correctly installed. :eek:

FWIW i have had so much car sweat switching this summer with kiddos going to grandparents i just quit using the LC all together. It was just such a huge hassle and not worth it - especially because i don't NEED to use it for safety.

When you look up videos on how to use a locking clip it "seems" very easy - not a hard concept to grasp, but its harder to actually DO.... well at least it is in my van, in that one position, with the Radian.

Honestly, if i knew a person was driving an older car that did not have retracting seat belts and they asked my opinion on what seat to buy - I'd steer them to a seat with lockoffs rather than try to explain to them about LC's....
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I pretty much agree. I don't jump straight to a locking clip, but if one is clearly preferable, I don't hesitate.

A tech I work with automatically teaches locking-clip use with Peg infant seats. They tend to loosen too easily otherwise.
 

jjordan

Moderator
I agree, for the most part. If a caregiver seems particularly enthusiastic about car seats, I'd be more inclined to teach a locking clip (if it would be helpful). But in general, the easier, the better. I definitely try to stick to just the basics when I'm teaching someone (eg dh or grandparent) to install seats for my own kids, because the easier it is, the more likely my kid is to be safe. Although in my own case, I also have options as far as choosing a seat that is easy to install, and knowing exactly what car it's being installed in, so I don't have to even think about "now if you run into situation x in some other car, here's how to handle it."

On the other hand, back before our first was born, we were not taught how to use a locking clip by the CPST that helped us with our infant seat, and we probably should have been. Our car was pre-LATCH and the infant seat base did not have a lockoff. It installed well at first, but loosened up (maybe as the seat compressed? IDK) and got tippy over time. I don't think the CPST should have taught us to use a locking clip, but maybe instead she should have emphasized that we needed to keep checking the installation for tightness, and mentioned that if it started to get tippy, we should call back and she could show us how to deal with it. Or something like that.
 

canadiangie

New member
I'm in a position where leaving a family with an install that I know is going to tip within a week or two of use just isn't acceptable. I teach and teach and teach some more until they get it. I explain how counter intuitive the actual process of adding a LC is, and I validate how difficult using one can be. And I always demonstrate what a tipped seat looks like first, and why it happens, and of course I give them the option to go with a locked belt initially. 99% of the time the parents are so beyond grateful to have me in front of them (as in, a real living breathing CRST) they are more than happy to learn how to use a LC. And with a little hand over hand instruction, they always get it, and tend to come away feeling pretty confident in their ability to replicate the install.

I'm sort of anti "xyz is too hard for most people so let's just assume its too hard and not teach them". That mentality (as it relates to just about anything) really irritates me. Every family I meet is unique, and gets a fresh-start approach from me. :)
 

Pixelated

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I explain how counter intuitive the actual process of adding a LC is, and I validate how difficult using one can be. And I always demonstrate what a tipped seat looks like first, and why it happens, and of course I give them the option to go with a locked belt initially. 99% of the time the parents are so beyond grateful to have me in front of them (as in, a real living breathing CRST) they are more than happy to learn how to use a LC. And with a little hand over hand instruction, they always get it, and tend to come away feeling pretty confident in their ability to replicate the install.

I'm sort of anti "xyz is too hard for most people so let's just assume its too hard and not teach them". That mentality (as it relates to just about anything) really irritates me. Every family I meet is unique, and gets a fresh-start approach from me. :)

I mostly do this. Each family is different of course, but I mostly do private checks and usually have the time to spend going over anything and everything. Want to learn the seat belt instead of just UAS? Let's do it. Think you'll ever travel with your seat and want to learn a baseless install? Hop in. That being said I don't usually have tipping issues - maybe I've just been fortunate enough to get the particular combos of seats and cars where it's not too much of an issue. But when the LC is required, the parent does it and after being walked through it a light goes on and they get it, much more than they did reading it.
 

christineka

New member
Most of the checks I do are at events, where we aren't supposed to spend a ton of time with the clients, plus most of the time, we don't speak the same mutual language. I show the parent how to install without the locking clip first. I only teach the locking clip if it's needed.
 

bbartlettnfld

New member
I have only encountered needing to use this "fix" on Graco Snugride bases. I've never had the problem in a convertible seat.

I rarely go the locking clip route but I know other techs that use them way more than I do (same with pool noodles) I tell parents what to look for and tell them to just uninstall the base and reinstall it. If it becomes a persistent problem I have them contact our message line and let us know what the issue is. Then I will go the locking clip route. Of if we are at a check event and the seat tips very quickly and easily more than once I will go the locking clip route. But its not what I grab first KWIM.
 

EmmaCPST

CPST Instructor
I almost always go for a LATCH position or a locking clip with a Snugride non-lockoff base and a switchable retractor. People just complain SO much about tipping that I just start there. I always explain how their seat belts lock and that they likely won't have to do this with every seat, etc. I mostly do private checks, btw.

I did have a dad about a year ago that was really struggling with the LC so we ditched it and I just told him he would probably be re-installing the base fairly often and showed him some tricks to help minimize the tipping over time as much as possible. Typically parents seem to get it really easily though - I think I'm pretty good at talking a parent through it and once they get the hang of it they're usually fine.

I don't think I've ever used a locking clip with a convertible or combo seat with a locking retractor though.

LCs are one thing I see used ALL the time though (and probably 90% of the time it's unnecessary) and it really surprises me. Before I was a tech I had zero clue they existed so it surprises me to see so many parents using them, and most of the time using them incorrectly.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
With a Snugride, or a seat I know has tipping issues (Scenera, for instance) I'll explain it to the parent, demonstrate by pulling up on the locked belt what *might* happen (and usually over a few weeks), and then offer them the option of locking clip, they reinstall every few weeks, or a LATCH position. I'd say about 50% move to LATCH, and 50% do the locking clip. It's a pain once, but then they can leave it on the belt. I have them redo it so they know how.

Wendy
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
THat's pretty much standard procedure, as far as I know. Try it without LC. If it causes a big problem, try it with. Offer parents choices including moving to a position with LATCH, reinstalling, or going with the LC. (Isn't that what everyone does?)
 

tiggercat

New member
ketchupqueen said:
THat's pretty much standard procedure, as far as I know. Try it without LC. If it causes a big problem, try it with. Offer parents choices including moving to a position with LATCH, reinstalling, or going with the LC. (Isn't that what everyone does?)

Yep. This is my SOP.

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bnsnyde

New member
At my tech class, we were told to use a locking clip with every RF seat. I don't agree with that at all. It made the seat checks difficult because I knew I'd be expected to use a locking clip every time we were observed with a RF seat, as we learned in class. I got really good at using those clips!

But I never use them unless needed, now.
 

Judi

CPST/Firefighter
Yep, that is basically what I do. Of course, I had an instructor at one clinic that said all infant seats get locking clips. Oy.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Yep, that is basically what I do. Of course, I had an instructor at one clinic that said all infant seats get locking clips. Oy.

Oi. Yeah, those instructors that seek to oversimplify the procedure for new techs or whatever and mess with the actual rules, well. (Also: some tech candidates should not pass the class. There were at least two in my class who really should not have. I have found an attitude in some classes that you're going to pass as long as you attend, they'll make sure of it, bend rules, etc. That is not cool. And leads to some of the installations I have to correct from techs who were paid to install the seat, and did it wrong. So if you have to simplify the curriculum to get people to pass? Either something's wrong with your teaching, or you've got one of the people who really needs to either give up or try again from the start.)
 

trippsmom

CPST Instructor
ketchupqueen said:
THat's pretty much standard procedure, as far as I know. Try it without LC. If it causes a big problem, try it with. Offer parents choices including moving to a position with LATCH, reinstalling, or going with the LC. (Isn't that what everyone does?)

This is what I do. I always make sure that I stress that if they have issues using the locking clip that they can just reinstall and it is perfectly safe as long as the tipping isn't extreme. I have needed to use one at a public check maybe three times, and I've had to use a BSC twice.
 

cso1997

Active member
I hate LCs with a passion. I have literally been brought to tears. I do use them as the last resort. However, some parents are great with them so I don't let my hatred stand in the way. There is always a time and place for LCs...just not in my car :)
 

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