wwyd, illegal 5pt seat or booster...

Jewels said:

Except he isn't 4 yet so it is still against the law. The law is 4 and 40lbs. Just because you have a almost 16yr old doesn't mean you let them drive your car because they are weeks away from being 16, or just because your child is almost 18 (or 21 in the US) doesn't mean they can go to the bar. Same goes for speeding if the speed limit is 50 and you're going 51,52,,56,70 or 80 your are still speeding and still breaking the law. The law is the law and really either option isn't really legal.

In this case I would opt for . . . the safest option which would be the Husky.

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show me where it says absolutely 4 years and 40 for manitoba.
I have this quote from http://www.carseatsafety.ca/common_errors.html

11. Mistake : Moving your child into a booster seat too soon

Dangers : A booster seat is manufactured for children 18 kg (40 lbs) to 36 - 45 kg (80 - 100 lbs) and about 4 years of age. Small children will not be securely properly in a booster seat and could be ejected from the vehicle in a crash.


Also, I did not ask which seat is safer in my OP, I asked WWYD, which seat would you use.
between an illegal 5pt and a legal excellent quality booster... i feel like I am talking to a brick wall here.

if you saw us at a seat inspection what would you do? illegal or legal? both appropriate seats.

thrillhouse said:

i feel like I am talking to a brick wall here.

if you saw us at a seat inspection what would you do? illegal or legal? both appropriate seats.

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Guess you understand how everyone else feels then, eh? (brick wall comment)

Your Husky would get confiscated. Your son would leave in the Parkway due to no other option... we do not have free seats to give out. You would be informed that he needs to be in a harnessed seat and that you should purchase one as soon as possible since he is not allowed to be in the Parkway yet.

Edited to add: that is at a seat check that you voluntarily go to... if you are stopped at a checkstop... the Husky gets confiscated and you are not allowed to leave the check stop until you can arrange for someone to bring you an appropriate harnessed seat for his height/weight. I have actually heard of this happening to a woman who was less than 5 miles from her home. The officer refused to let her leave the scene until she had an appropriate seat brought to her, in addition to the fines she received. And no, this was not word of mouth, but stated as a proveable example in our class.

This is what happens to you in Alberta. A Manitoba tech will have to chime in with their procedures.

thrillhouse said:

I know the rationale for a 5 point seat, I know the rationale for a booster, and IMO a 5 point illegal seat without TSIP compared with a legal 3 booster WITH TSIP is a draw for safety, leaning towards the booster for morals.

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My commment is strictly in regards to crash test safety having read the CMVSS code pertaining to booster cushions.

First, there is no "crash standard" for a booster seat. Booster seats are regulated as to the amount of padding on the seat, the type of materials used, the instructions that come with them and the labelling on the seat itself. A booster seat does not restrain a passenger, so does not have to pass the same standards as a harnessed car seat.

The other issue, speaking strictly from a technical safety standpoint, is that there are no standards for testing TSIP. Even for 5pt harness systems like the BLVD - the seat passes the same minimum standards as every single other seat available on the US market, but because of the "head wings" EPS foam and internal testing, it is marketed as TSIP. Is it strictly speaking because of the support on either side of the head so there isn't room for the head to move before impacting the car seat? We have no way of knowing.

Add to this, that a 5pt harness inherently provides more SIP than a booster even with TSIP. That's just the nature of the 5pt harness - it distributes the crash forces over more points and more bony structures of the body. It also will keep the child in position.

Let's imagine for an instant a multi vehicle collision. You're t-boned - the situation you're hoping that the TSIP is going to provide the most protection in. (Should I mention at this point that side impact testing isn't required as part of FMVSS or CMVSS standards too?) The head wings of the parkway do a good job of keeping your ds contained and he is not severely injured after the first collision - but maybe he's unconscious.... no longer supporting himself, perhaps slack and leaning on the locked seatbelt. Then you get hit again. He's no longer in the proper position, the seatbelt is there, but no longer provides optimal protection because it's not positioned on his body perfectly....

The above scenario wouldn't have the same risks in a 5pt harness. Even if a child was unconscious, they would still be strapped in tight, the harness close to their body and still protected.

You can argue that a situation like that would never happen, or wouldn't adult passengers face the same risks... and yes, adult passengers would face the same risk - BUT, and this is a big but - you asked us which is safest for your ds. You asked for evidence that a 5pt is safer than a booster. I don't have statistics sitting around, but I think from the standpoint of this hypothetical situation, it's fairly obvious about the extra protection a 5pt is going to give.

The TSIP in the parkway isn't going to protect your ds's remaining kidney - the seatbelt is what's going across his abdomen, the seatbelt is where the risk of injury is from and from his internal organs impacting his skeletal structure in the last stage of the collision.

It seems you've already made up your mind, and I don't really care to get into the semantics this morning. But the facts about regulations are there. We know how 5pt harnesses perform in a collision. We know how seat belts work in a collision. A booster is a positioning device designed to allow the seat belt to protect the occupant as well as possible. And it does a good job for kids that are old enough and mature enough. But no matter how good a job it does, it will never be as good as a 5pt harness.

You asked for what was safest, that's what we're telling you. FWIW, I didn't vote in the poll. As a tech I'm not going to tell you to do something illegal. As a parent though, I would rather my child be in a regent at 3yrs old if no other available seat on the CDN market fit him. And you already have the husky and have been fine using it up until now... I just don't understand why all of the sudden getting a new booster changes everything. If you didn't have the booster, nothing would be changing, right?

So I just really don't see why a booster is best all the sudden. Safety wise nothing has changed from the point prior to you getting the booster and where you are now. What has changed is your interpretation of which one is safest and your comfort level with continuing to use a seat that's imported from the US. If it's wasn't a moral dillemma prior to now, why is it such a moral issue now? Is it because he's almost 4 and "old enough" to be in a booster in a few weeks?

I just honestly and truly don't understand.

At any rate, the safest option is to continue to use the husky. TSIP is not mandated and there are no standards for it. Intuitively a seat with TSIP looks like it provides more protection, but there are no tests to confirm this, and no standards to say that it's better. So my advice, would be to pretend that the parkway is no different than any other high back booster from the standpoint of making a decision. If you wouldn't put your ds in another one, don't put him in the Parkway either. A bit of extra protection around the side doesn't change whether or not your ds is ready for a booster or protected well enough in a booster. :twocents:

aidensmom02 said:

Guess you understand how everyone else feels then, eh? (brick wall comment)

Your Husky would get confiscated. Your son would leave in the Parkway due to no other option... we do not have free seats to give out.

You would be informed that he needs to be in a harnessed seat and that you should purchase one as soon as possible since he is not allowed to be in the Parkway yet.

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YES! He IS allowed to be in the parkway, have you read ANYTHING I have wrote today??

you ladies are so completely militant, you hear a specific number applies in some cases and then that's absolutely IT for everyone. You're not willing to listen to anything else, even though there is more than one correct answer.

I still haven't made up my mind but I like the parkway just to spite you people, TECHS even who clearly do NOT know the law enough to be giving out advice. I see so many times techs who are NOT qualified. Not all techs are created equal.

so based on the fact that our Husky would be confiscated, where do you stand? are you still telling me that you would choose the husky? one contradiction after another here.

BTW - Here's the CMVSS section of the code related to booster seats:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/GENERAL/M/mvsa/regulations/rssr/rssr.htm#SCHEDULE 5

Testing

3. After applying a preload of 175 N to the booster cushion, the booster cushion, including any padding or covering, must not deflect more than 25 mm under the application of a vertical 2 250 N force applied anywhere on the upper seating surface of the booster cushion through an apparatus described in section 20 of ANSI/ASTM D3574-77, Flexible Cellular Materials-Slab, Bonded, and Molded Urethane Foams, published by the American Society for Testing and Materials.

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That is all the testing done on a booster. It is not a restraining device - it's a positioning device and relies on the tests performed by the vehicle manufacturer on the vehicle safety belt system. Boosters are safer than a vehicle seat belt because they make the adult seat belt fit a child. We have no proof that a parkway performs better than any other high back booster. So I'd just really encourage you to remove that "TSIP" from the equation.

Probably a moot point for me to answer but I voted illegal 5 pt.

Here is why:
5pt is safer no matter what. TSIP aside. For example, it is safer for a 1 year old to be rear facing in a Cosco Scenera (bare bones carseat with nothing) than Forward Facing in a Britax Boulevard with TSIP. Another example a 3 yr old in a Cosco Scenera is safer than in a Parkway with TSIP even if they meet the weight/height and maturity issues. Heck adults are safer in 5 pt harness!!!!

Just because a seat has TSIP doesn't mean it makes it the safest decision.

You son has one kidney due to cancer (I think you said). Why go through all of the trama you had to with his cancer (and I know, I had cancer as a 9 year old) to put him at a increased risk in the car.

Physically (height and weight) and maybe maturity (based on what you have said) he may be okay but internally he is still a 4 year old and his bones aren't as strong plus he only has 1 kidney.
That is just my :twocents: but you want what is best for your child and a 5 pt is safest/best.

I did not ASK which is safer. I was simply questioning the people who were misinterpreting my question.

and yes, now that we have a legal AND appropriate seat, we are questioning whether we need to risk using an illegal seat.

that is all I ever asked...

I wasn't answering in response to all the other post but to your original post. Which would you choose: Illegal Husky or parkway? I was giving you an answer to that.

thrillhouse said:

YES! He IS allowed to be in the parkway, have you read ANYTHING I have wrote today??

you ladies are so completely militant, you hear a specific number applies in some cases and then that's absolutely IT for everyone. You're not willing to listen to anything else, even though there is more than one correct answer.

I still haven't made up my mind but I like the parkway just to spite you people, TECHS even who clearly do NOT know the law enough to be giving out advice. I see so many times techs who are NOT qualified. Not all techs are created equal.

so based on the fact that our Husky would be confiscated, where do you stand? are you still telling me that you would choose the husky? one contradiction after another here.

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If you want to put your son in the Parkway to spite us, WOW, just wow! We don't know you, we don't see you and you can make whatever decision you like to make. You've obviously already been using an illegal seat, so the law doesn't mean much to you anyway. I just hope that you make your decision based on what is safest for your son, not to spite me/us.

Speaking from experience, another issue with boosters is that children often start out using them properly, but after a while they start experimenting, either out of boredom once the novelty of the new seat has worn off, or because they're in the middle of a mental growth-spurt. Trying out a booster for a week or so doesn't give an accurate picture of how the child will behave in the seat over time.

There have been many times when I find myself saying to even my 9 and 11 year old "SIT UP! What are you DOING leaning all the way over like that? Why isn't your seat belt locked?" "Oops, sorry mom, I forgot." Most people would argue that an 11 year old is old enough and responsible enough to buckle himself, and probably 90% of the time they are - but if we get in a wreck that 10% of the time they're not, he's still just as screwed.

thrillhouse said:

Possibly even more secure since he hasn't got that extra space at his sides.

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Right here is where you started the booster is safer than 5pt debate at the very beginning of the thread.

thrillhouse said:

TECHS even who clearly do NOT know the law enough to be giving out advice. I see so many times techs who are NOT qualified. Not all techs are created equal.

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Nope, not all techs are created equal. However, the quoted info that aidensmom02 has provided in regards to code is directly out of the Canadian CRST training manual. So you can rest assured that that is the correct law. And having personally met her, I can tell you that she's very competent and more knowledgeable than many many others out there. If I was going to a tech, I know that I would get the correct and accurate advice from her. :twocents:

And just for fun, I'm going to call Britax and ask if there's an age recommendation on the parkway in Canada. :thumbsup: I read the manual online last night, and I didn't see a given age limit, only weight and height. The online manual is not always the same as the version being sent with a seat though, and there are often consumer advisory notices on manuals due to important info being omitted.

This is a wwyd question, I think being a tech forgotten for a moment - and assuming that no other seat on the CDN market would fit my child, I would risk using the husky. This is not my professional opinion and it's not something I'd recommend to others. But there is a difference between parental decision and professional recommendation. A huge huge difference. As a tech I will never ever tell a parent to choose an option that is against the law, and I will tell them if an option is less safe than another. As a parent, I may choose to do the safer option and make the parental decision to use the husky.

Does that make it legal? No. Does that make me immune to having my seat taken away in a stop? No. But my parental decision would be made knowing the risks and benefits, and with the acceptance of the risks. This is your parental decision to make. Neither at the moment is legal. Sure, in a few weeks the parkway all the sudden becomes legal, but that doesn't make it safer than it is today.

We have to quibble over exact age limits. Once you move the line, it will keep getting moved further and further back. A bar will never admit someone 6hrs before their birthday - at least not without taking on the risk of losing their liquor license. If they did that, then why not one day, or one week. All the sudden you're at 1 month and admitting a 17yr old. Legal laws and ages are in place for a reason. If they're not set in stone and are open to interpretation, it creates a safety risk. :twocents:

thrillhouse said:

show me where it says absolutely 4 years and 40 for manitoba.

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Pretty much all booster seats in Canada have a min. requirement of 4 and 40lbs. So maybe the MB law isn't specific about the 4 and 40lbs but there is a proper use clause that would over-ride the MB law saying you have to use the seat according to the manufacture instructions. If the Parkway doesn't say in the manual 4 and 40lbs then this is the first booster that I have notice not to say that.

Jewels said:

Pretty much all booster seats in Canada have a min. requirement of 4 and 40lbs. So maybe the MB law isn't specific about the 4 and 40lbs but there is a proper use clause that would over-ride the MB law saying you have to use the seat according to the manufacture instructions. If the Parkway doesn't say in the manual 4 and 40lbs then this is the first booster that I have notice not to say that.

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I'll go get my manual and double check, but I am quite certain it is the same as the US version, only in english and french.

there is no mention of a child's age in this manual. Only that children who weigh 40 lbs or less are best in a 5 point seat.

thrillhouse said:

we have an illegal husky that expires in 2 years, and we have a canadian parkway.

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Okay, I thought I remembered you mentioning that you had a Husky somewhere else so I started to look for that post. While I was looking I came across another thread of yours from 2005 where you had just gotten your MA and were hoping that the Husky would become available by the time he outgrew his MA. Well the Husky isn't available and we know you brought it across the border since you say you have an illegal husky. I noticed you said that it expires in 2yrs so I am guessing you bought it used (as it expires in 2yrs and you didn't have it 2yrs ago). Does this have anything to do with the fact that you are now thinking a Parkway is safer then a Husky

I also found this post by you and am wondering why now you have changed your mind about the Husky

thrillhouse said:

that sucks... if they are going to be like that about it I will likely smuggle one across the border when the time comes. I don't mind getting a "fine" or "demerit" to ensure my son is as safe as possible. the chances of anyone even noticing is very unlikely.

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Let's all take some nice deep breaths. I think we can all safely say that we all have our children's best interests at heart. We are all here because we care and we want to do the best thing. right?

Clearly we all have a point to make, but can we agree that we are all right? Yes, a 5 point is safER, but is it better to break the law than use use a seat that is legal and also safe?

Jewels said:

Okay, I thought I remembered you mentioning that you had a Husky somewhere else so I started to look for that post. While I was looking I came across another thread of yours from 2005 where you had just gotten your MA and were hoping that the Husky would become available by the time he outgrew his MA. Well the Husky isn't available and we know you brought it across the border since you say you have an illegal husky. I noticed you said that it expires in 2yrs so I am guessing you bought it used (as it expires in 2yrs and you didn't have it 2yrs ago). Does this have anything to do with the fact that you are now thinking a Parkway is safer then a Husky

I also found this post by you and am wondering why now you have changed your mind about the Husky

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We didn't buy it used, it was old stock being clearanced when the Regent came out. We're not made of money, as most parents understand and this was an affordable option for us.
The bottom line is, that it's illegal and now that we have a legal option that works well for him and us, things have changed. Plus, it takes up 2/3 of our backseat.

thrillhouse said:

We didn't buy it used, it was old stock being clearanced when the Regent came out. We're not made of money, as most parents understand and this was an affordable option for us.
The bottom line is, that it's illegal and now that we have a legal option that works well for him and us, things have changed. Plus, it takes up 2/3 of our backseat.

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Sounds like you've already made your decision... so basically this thread is over. It's pretty clear that the majority on here have voted Husky.