wwyd, illegal 5pt seat or booster...

thrillhouse said:

As I have said several times now, we still have the husky and IF he proves to have difficulty sitting in the parkway we will pull over and put the husky back in since we are keeping it in the trunk.

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If you are concerned about projectiles, the trunk is NOT a good place to keep a Husky.

thrillhouse said:

I read the quote.

Originally Posted by aidensmom02 View Post
Manitoba's basic law states the following:

April 1984 (when it came into effect) - All children under 5 years of age and 50 pounds must be restrained in an appropriate device prescribed in the regulations and the device must be properly secured to the motor vehicle.

Remember this is in addition to federal laws... so

RF until 20lbs
Harnessed until 5 years AND 50 lbs
Harnessed until 6 years IF under 40lbs
Boostered until the adult seatbelt fits correctly (can pass the 5 step test)

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That is a summation of Manitoba's law and the Federal's law together. Since Manitoba's law is more strict than the Federal law, it takes precedence for people living in Manitoba.

I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll copy and paste here for your benefit...

The Federal law must be followed by all provinces and then it is up to them whether or not they want to build on the Federal law, but the Federal law is minimum.

It states
Children under 20lbs MUST be rearfacing.
Children under 40lbs OR 6 years of age MUST be in a child restraint.
A top tether strap MUST be used with a FF Child restraint.

This sounds like it means your 42lb, 2yr old could legally be in nothing (depending on provincial laws which may accompany federal laws) and it could also mean that your 35lb, 5 yr old must be in a child restraint... crazy, huh? This only applies to the child restraint laws. Read on for the good news.

A child under 16 is required to be properly buckled into a seatbelt, if they are not, it is against a proper use law. So all children must be properly restrained under one law or another... basically an indirect booster law for all of Canada.

This means that if you have a child under 16 sitting in a seatbelt that does not fit them correctly (meaning the 5 Step Test listed at the end of this post), it is ticketable and against the proper use law.

THE 5 STEP TEST
If you answer "No" to any of these questions, your child must be in a booster seat:
1. Does the child sit all the way back against the auto seat?
2. Do the child's knees bend comfortably at the edge of the auto seat?
3. Is the lap belt touching the top of the thighs, not the tummy?
4. Is the shoulder belt centered on the shoulder and chest?
5. Can the child stay seated like this for the whole trip?
BELT-POSITIONING BOOSTERS CAN NOT be used with only a lap belt!
(See your car dealer for a lap/shoulder belt retrofit.)

Basically, any child under 16 must be in either a seatbelt, booster or child restraint and must be using it correctly.

Hope that clears up some of the confusion for you.

Off to put grass down in my yard... so someone else is going to have to try and reason with you.

The techs are the experts here. They are telling you that a 5 pt harness is much safer than a 3 pt seat belt. That should be all the 'evidence' that you need. As a non-tech here (so not suffering from tech-itis), if you have the Husky available, use it. If I had the choice of using a Husky or a PW, I would personally use the Husky over a PW for any kid that still fit in it, despite age/weight/maturity, simply because a 5 pt harness is that much safer.
But, I can see that you already have your mind made up.

aidensmom02 said:

If you are concerned about projectiles, the trunk is NOT a good place to keep a Husky.

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i know this, thanks

I have said many times, I am still deciding... and we aren't going to be driving for a few days so there is time to think.

aidensmom02 said:

The Federal law must be followed by all provinces and then it is up to them whether or not they want to build on the Federal law, but the Federal law is minimum.

It states
Children under 20lbs MUST be rearfacing.
Children under 40lbs OR 6 years of age MUST be in a child restraint.
A top tether strap MUST be used with a FF Child restraint.

This sounds like it means your 42lb, 2yr old could legally be in nothing (depending on provincial laws which may accompany federal laws)

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he does weigh 42 lbs but he is not 2 years old. he is almost 4.

I do appreciate all of the passion you folks have here at car-seat.org but in all honesty treating educated parents like they know nothing is inappropriate. I know the law, and I agree that many of the laws are ridiculously low, allowing parents to make poor decisions. I know the rationale for a 5 point seat, I know the rationale for a booster, and IMO a 5 point illegal seat without TSIP compared with a legal 3 booster WITH TSIP is a draw for safety, leaning towards the booster for morals.

Well, I'm not a tech and I don't live in Canada, but I'll give my :twocents: anyway. I can't answer with stats but I do know that the younger a kid is, the softer his bones are. I've become convinced recently that I want my kids harnessed until age 5, when the bone maturity gives them more stabiltiy. I say this because of a couple of utube videos, Belles gift I think was one of them. The 3pt belt doesn't spread out the crash forces enough for younger kids with soft bones. It has nothing to do with size, it is a bone maturity thing. Younger kids are more likely to be crushed by the 3 pt belt.

Given that you already have a Husky, and buying another seat (Radian, MA, Cargo, Chase) would not be costs effective for the short use you would get, I'd personally pick the Husky over the Parkway at this time.

thrillhouse said:

he does weigh 42 lbs but he is not 2 years old. he is almost 4.

I do appreciate all of the passion you folks have here at car-seat.org but in all honesty treating educated parents like they know nothing is inappropriate. I know the law, and I agree that many of the laws are ridiculously low, allowing parents to make poor decisions. I know the rationale for a 5 point seat, I know the rationale for a booster, and IMO a 5 point illegal seat without TSIP compared with a legal 3 booster WITH TSIP is a draw for safety, leaning towards the booster for morals.

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That is a c and p from another post... it is not in reference to your son.

You are not being treated like you know nothing. If you were, we would have said... stop being stupid and leave him in the Husky. However the majority of us have been having a fairly civil conversation and explaining *why* he is not old enough to go into a booster yet. You are the one that does not like the answers being given.

If you know the law and agree that it is ridiculously low, then why are you even considering putting your son in a booster before he has even reached the "ridiculously low" *minimum*?... your words.

The pp is correct. Bones do not fully finish developing until 9 - 10 years old. This is why it is so important for children between the ages of 5 and 10 to be in a booster or some form of child restraint. The booster acts as their hip bones because their hip bones are not strong enough to withstand the crash forces of an adult seatbelt alone.

This is also even more true of *all* their bones before the age of 5. To keep them properly protected, they require a 5pt harness to help spread the crash forces over their entire body. They are not strong enough to withstand concentrated crash forces from a 3 pt seatbelt.

The TSIP (eps foam) of the Parkway is going to do nothing for him when he can not withstand the crash forces of a 3 pt seatbelt. It has nothing to do with size and everything to do with age... he's simply NOT old enough.

thrillhouse said:

My new question is "how much safer is a 5pt" is it a little bit safer? a whole lot safer? I've yet to see any evidence (that link posted a little while didn't work for me, either time) I understand that rfing for as long as possible is a whole lot safer. But This seat has been proven safe and approved for his height and weight. he is essentially 4 years old, I don't understand why so many are insisting that they know for a fact that my son cannot possibly sit still in the car. You've never met him or been in the car with him! good lawd.. get a grip ladies :thumbsdown:

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A WHOLE LOT SAFER! is the answer to your question. WHY? Because now at every given second of your car ride he is in perfect position in the event of an accident.

Even us as parents and adults aren't always positioned correctly, so there is NO WAY a 4 or even 5 year old would every second of the car ride. That's right..it only takes 1 SECOND for a seatbelt to kill him.

In a 5-point the unimaginable 100's if not 1000's of pounds of force are spread out over 5 points instead of 3.

Race car drives, flight attendants, etc... all wear 5-point harnesses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2LFo8vVi04

aidensmom02 said:

The TSIP (eps foam) of the Parkway is going to do nothing for him when he can not withstand the crash forces of a 3 pt seatbelt. It has nothing to do with size and everything to do with age... he's simply NOT old enough.

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from my understanding, EPS foam does not = tsip. my marathon has eps foam, but it does not have the tsip that the boulevard has.
he is almost 4 and I guess when his birthday comes he will magically be old enough at 7:22 am?
I'm still deciding... goodbye

I voted to keep him in the Husky. :thumbsup:

thrillhouse said:

from my understanding, EPS foam does not = tsip. my marathon has eps foam, but it does not have the tsip that the boulevard has.
he is almost 4 and I guess when his birthday comes he will magically be old enough at 7:22 am?
I'm still deciding... goodbye

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Right, EPS does not equal TSIP. She was just saying that the wings on the Parkway have EPS foam in them

Law Minimums do NOT = Safe :thumbsdown:

He is your son, we are just providing you with the the safest information and what we were trained to teach/educate parents. These facts and information are based off of real world crashes, experience, and data. Us Techs are not just making this stuff up

FWIW, the OP has a point.

I'm not really giving any advice because I'm in the US and don't have a CLUE about Canadian laws. BUT, 4 & 40 is the minimum, right? Her ds will be the minimum in a few weeks.

I know I probably wouldn't use an illegal seat, unless my child wouldn't fit in another seat at all. That is, if I had the 2 year old who was 50 lbs or what not, and wouldn't fit in any of the current LEGAL seats..that sort of thing.

A four year old in a high back booster, isn't the SAFEST option, but it isn't completely unsafe either. And she's got a very good booster seat. Hell, when MY 7 year old went into a booster, it was the CARGO in booster mode. While I'd never do that again or recommend it to anyone, I'd consider putting a 4 year old into a high back booster.

Right now, that whole pile on thing is going on, and we look like fanatics (in the bad way. lol) instead of people who genuinely want to help parents make the best choice for their children.

I'm just saying.

Simplysomething said:

FWIW, the OP has a point.

I'm not really giving any advice because I'm in the US and don't have a CLUE about Canadian laws. BUT, 4 & 40 is the minimum, right? Her ds will be the minimum in a few weeks.

I know I probably wouldn't use an illegal seat, unless my child wouldn't fit in another seat at all. That is, if I had the 2 year old who was 50 lbs or what not, and wouldn't fit in any of the current LEGAL seats..that sort of thing.

A four year old in a high back booster, isn't the SAFEST option, but it isn't completely unsafe either. And she's got a very good booster seat. Hell, when MY 7 year old went into a booster, it was the CARGO in booster mode. While I'd never do that again or recommend it to anyone, I'd consider putting a 4 year old into a high back booster.

Right now, that whole pile on thing is going on, and we look like fanatics (in the bad way. lol) instead of people who genuinely want to help parents make the best choice for their children.

I'm just saying.

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can I kiss you :thumbsup: I do notice an awful lot of US residents coming over to the cdn side, just to see what the hoopla ia about, thank you for pointing that out. Yes! my point is also that this is not a basic booster. I would never in a million years put my child in the bare minumum, ie: i wouldn't put him in a cargo booster, or even a turbobooster... this is a parkway, above and beyond in terms of boosters.

But what I still don't get is why ask for advice in the first place if you already knew what you where going to do? If you read any of this child SAFETY forum you would have to know what we would advise.

again, I know which is safer, I was asking which would be better to use. an illegal seat 5 point or a legal booster. lets say for all intents and purposes that he is 4 years old.

Connor's Mom said:

But what I still don't get is why ask for advice in the first place if you already knew what you where going to do? If you read any of this child SAFETY forum you would have to know what we would advise.

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Exactly my point...

I've been having this conversation with you since the beginning of the post. Obviously I didn't just come over here to see what all the fuss was about and don't consider myself one of the people piling it on.

You asked what would be safest. I am a Canadian Children's Restraint Systems Technician. I gave you the correct answer. You did not like the answer and asked further questions. I have tried to give you the why's along with the answers to your questions. You still don't like them.

You did not ask, "Can I do the minimum?". You asked what would be safest. I've told you what would be safest in YOUR situation with YOUR child. If you don't like that answer, then that is fine. Piling it on would have been had you asked the question can I do the minimum and I continued to spout 5pt is safer... but that's not what you asked.

It is up to you as the parent to decide if you want to go with bare minimums (which is a booster in this case... even if the Parkway is a very safe booster) or to keep him harnessed in the Husky.

As of right now, he is legally required to be in a harnessed seat. As of his 4th birthday, you have the option of putting him a booster. Regardless, given his situation, the 5pt restraint is still safer than the booster. It's up to you which option you decide to go with.

Edited to add: I would make a decision one way or the other though. Riding around with the Husky in the cargo area of your hatchback is not a good idea. If you want it there just in case, then consider installing it in the other outboard position and leave the top tether off until you decide if/when you need it.

Is there a weight recommendation for a 5 year old to be in a booster? I never realized so much about our bodies, and how they developed.

thrillhouse said:

again, I know which is safer, I was asking which would be better to use. an illegal seat 5 point or a legal booster. lets say for all intents and purposes that he is 4 years old.

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He's not four, it doesn't play into the equation.

If you know what's safer and your question implied that you wanted to do what was safest, then I'm confused why you still want him in the Parkway?

chickenman said:

Is there a weight recommendation for a 5 year old to be in a booster? I never realized so much about our bodies, and how they developed.

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4 years old AND 40lbs is the minimum we want to see any child boostered.

With regards to bone development (which is why I don't like to see children in boosters before the age of 5), it has nothing to do with height or weight. It is strictly an age thing. Bones need *time* to calcify and weight/height do not affect that... simply time.

This was something new I learned in class and it is why 9 - 10 year olds should still be in at least a backless booster. The booster acts as their hip bones and takes the brunt of the collision forces instead of completely relying on their own hip bones. Take a feel over the front of your hip bones sometime. You will feel a little hook that comes forward (especially true in women). That hook helps keep the lap portion of your seatbelt nice and low and doesn't allow it to ride up. That 'hook' does not generally develop until around the age of 9 - 10 years old. That is why it's important to consider at least a backless booster for the 9 - 10 year old age group.

Simplysomething said:

I'm not really giving any advice because I'm in the US and don't have a CLUE about Canadian laws. BUT, 4 & 40 is the minimum, right? Her ds will be the minimum in a few weeks.

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thrillhouse said:

he is almost 4 and I guess when his birthday comes he will magically be old enough at 7:22 am?

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Except he isn't 4 yet so it is still against the law. The law is 4 and 40lbs. Just because you have a almost 16yr old doesn't mean you let them drive your car because they are weeks away from being 16, or just because your child is almost 18 (or 21 in the US) doesn't mean they can go to the bar. Same goes for speeding if the speed limit is 50 and you're going 51,52,,56,70 or 80 your are still speeding and still breaking the law. The law is the law and really either option isn't really legal.

In this case I would opt for . . . the safest option which would be the Husky.