oldest ffing harnessed child vs oldest child

christineka

New member
I know the rule is that if you have to put a kid up front it should be the oldest ffing harnessed child. It is said, though that head excursion for an untethered ffing harnessed seat is the same as with a booster. Most front seats don't have top tether anchors. Is it really safer to put a harnessed kid up front than an older kid in a backless booster?

In real life application, we end up with these situations at seat checks where a kid must go up front. We almost always choose to put the boostered kid up front because we know an adult is going to sit there often and we'd rather not have people installing and uninstalling harnessed seats all the time. It's much easier to get the booster right every time.

I have a situation where I must transport four kids. My van is out of service. Do I install a frontier up front for the 9 year old? A radian for the 7 year old? Or put the 12 year old up front in a backless booster?
 
ADS

April

Well-known member
12 year old in a backless. I have been faced with similar situations a lot, including with my own kids in an unavoidable situation for almost a year, and for the reasons you stated (head excursion, available TAs, and uninstalling and reinstalling) I ALWAYS choose oldest in a backless, and if that isn't an option, biggest and most mature and able to sit safely in a backless. (With my kids, the second oldest can stay in position more reliably than the oldest, and neither fit in harnessed seats).
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Brigala

CPST Instructor
I would put the 12 year old in a backless in front.

If it were the difference between, say, a 4 year old in a harness or a 5 (or even 6-8) year old in a booster, I'd put the harnessed child in front. But at 12 I'm relatively comfortable with a child in the front seat if there are no other seating positions available, the child sits properly all the time, and the seat is scooted all the way back.

I don't think the concern about the harness vs. booster in the front seat has to do with head excursion. It has to do with the absolute critical need to make sure the child is in proper position at all times. A young booster rider, no matter how much we preach "100% of the time" sitting properly still has a chance of being out of position at just the wrong time. I think I'd feel pretty good about a reasonably mature 12 year old in the front seat restrained with a seat belt, but anything younger than about 10 would make me very nervous.
 

bnsnyde

New member
Just thinking out loud...What are the concerns with the airbag and the 12-year-old? Different from an adult?

Does it matter that we have advanced airbags?

We don't need to put anyone up front, but hearing about how front seats are becoming so safe I'm curious.

I think my husband was close to 6 feet at age 12 and my kids will likely follow that trajectory. So, isn't the airbag a good thing for anyone up there in a FF position? I mean, I always have adults sit far from it too. Though then the FF child behind is compromised a bit with the seat very close to them. Can't win. Luckily the front is usually empty.

So, any thoughts about airbags and FF kids vs. adults?
And then, why is a harnessed child safer up there? The kid in a backless has no tether anyway. So shouldn't the older backless kid get the benefit of an airbag (and the younger harnessed kid get the tether in back)? I'm trying to think this through, thanks! :)
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Skeletal development depends on age, not size. So a twelve year old at six feet still has an underdeveloped skeleton. Well into/through with puberty makes a lot more difference than how tall in withstanding airbag impact from what I understand. That's why a few studies have shown 14-15 add the average age at which risk of being hit by an airbag isn't as worrisome...
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I will be curious to see studies involving advanced airbags. The studies we have now encompassed previous-generation airbags, or only a small portion of advanced. I do believe we'll see fewer injuries and better safety for children in the future. But I don't know.
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
I'd put the 12yr old in a backless with the seat all the way back. It may not be what the techs end up deciding is the best bet, but it's my gut reaction as to what to do :D
 

CrazyBoysMamma

New member
I would put the 12 year old in a backless in front.

If it were the difference between, say, a 4 year old in a harness or a 5 (or even 6-8) year old in a booster, I'd put the harnessed child in front. But at 12 I'm relatively comfortable with a child in the front seat if there are no other seating positions available, the child sits properly all the time, and the seat is scooted all the way back.

I don't think the concern about the harness vs. booster in the front seat has to do with head excursion. It has to do with the absolute critical need to make sure the child is in proper position at all times. A young booster rider, no matter how much we preach "100% of the time" sitting properly still has a chance of being out of position at just the wrong time. I think I'd feel pretty good about a reasonably mature 12 year old in the front seat restrained with a seat belt, but anything younger than about 10 would make me very nervous.
I agree with this. In my case if I have a front seat rider it is a 9 YO in a frontier, LBP install, but that's because my oldest is 9 :p The oldest "not normally OK for the front seat" extra kid I ever have is a very small 10, so I would still choose the 9 YO in the frontier, or possibly the 10 YO in it, he'd fit, though he'd be mad at me for ages...
 

momtoo3

Well-known member
Question to add to the 12 yr old in a backless up front...
If the 12 yr old 5 steps would they still benefit from a backless booster in the front? What if the booster puts them really high up on the seat (higher than my head would be when I sit there?) Ds1 has to ride up front when my van is full in the summer. He 5 steps in all positions in the van and he will be 12 in July.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
FTR when dealing with kids that age I'd also put the 12 year old in a backless (or 5-stepping) up front over a younger kid in a harness.
 

scoutingbear

New member
I'd also do the 12 year old in a backless or 5 stepping. Whichever. In my car I don't even 5 step in the backseat but I do in the front; stupid high shoulderbelts.

Spinoff...
All rear seating positions occupied. Advanced airbags in the front. 6 year old in RSTV (does not activate airbag at his weight) with seat all the way back, unpredictable 8 year old in RSTV or backless (does activate the airbag). No harnessed kid in the front since the oldest harnessed one isn't mine and I'd rather put mine in the front than someone elses young kid. Oldest kid in the car is 8.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
The kid more likely to stay in position goes in front. If neither of them will/can wiggle out of position in the RSTV (I know that can depend on the belt setup and all), then the 8 year old.
 

bobandjess99

Senior Community Member
I think that the "oldest vs oldest harnessed" question also depends on the difference in ages of those kids.

Like, if the child in a booster is only 5 or 6 , I'd be more likely to put the oldest harnessed kid , who might be 3 or 4 , there, as opposed to if the booster user was 10-12, as in this scenario.
 

Pixels

New member
And then, why is a harnessed child safer up there? The kid in a backless has no tether anyway. So shouldn't the older backless kid get the benefit of an airbag (and the younger harnessed kid get the tether in back)? I'm trying to think this through, thanks! :)

As Brigala said, it's all about GUARANTEEING 100% that the child will not be out of position. Nothing to do with tethers or the lack thereof.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Although in a few vans, there are tether anchors in the front, which would make me more comfortable with it if I had to put a kid there.
 

christineka

New member
As Brigala said, it's all about GUARANTEEING 100% that the child will not be out of position. Nothing to do with tethers or the lack thereof.

I had always read that the harness would keep the child further back from the air bag.

It's good to know that it's just the "in position" issue. Most of my boosterable kids (all but the 9 year old) are wonderful about staying in position all of the time.
 

christineka

New member
Although in a few vans, there are tether anchors in the front, which would make me more comfortable with it if I had to put a kid there.

I had one of those vans. I had the top tether retrofitted. I didn't need that one done, but the mechanic guys put in all of them for me. I think usually only vans that could also be used as cargo vans have top tether anchors, but I haven't researched them all.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
There are some Freestars or something that came with them, I think. But yeah, mostly larger vans- the E350 we rented had one, I think.
 

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