Question Can't get tight seatbelt install...

U

unregistered

Guest
Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

The short version:

We seriously do not know how to get a good install with the seatbelt. LATCH was so easy!

2002 Honda Odyssey
Diono Radian RXT
Rear-facing

Tried lap belt only, shoulder belt, using the locking clip. Nothing comes even close to tight.

So, that is the short version of the question. How in the world do you get a good seatbelt install?


The long version:

We have a Britax Boulevard 70 (the new one) installed in our Kia Spectra using the seat belt. It's a great install because of the cool seat belt path snap-downs (not sure of the official term) that Britax added- makes for a nice, tight install. With both of our previous seats (a Graco infant seat and old Britax Boulevard), we struggled with the locking clip and found a seatbelt install nearly impossible. We only used the Graco for three months (huge kid) and shed tears over the install and then took it to a professional. With the Boulevard, we only ever used LATCH and got nice, tight installs. We stopped using LATCH and went to belt path with the current Boulevard because I read that LATCH only works up until certain weight limits, 40 lbs for most vehicles. Again, she is getting close. We were dreading it but the new Britax design makes it much easier! So, my Boulevard is nice and tight in my Kia, but just about to turn around FF (my 3.5-year-old is getting close to 40 lbs). We just bought a Honda Odyssey (older model, 02) and a Dinio Radian which we picked because it goes to 45 lbs RF and I wanted to get her a few more miles out of RFing, at least in the vehicle she will be in most often. So far, my husband is still driving the van and I the car because I cannot get a good install in the van. No matter how hard we try, we can still push the seat all over the place. We tried first in the captain chair (moved over toward the middle) in the middle row. That seatbelt has the locking mechanism, but the install was still loose and so we tried the locking clip. That didn't help, still moving way more than 1" at the base. Also, there was nowhere to hook the top tether really (optional, but we thought it might help secure it). Next, we went to the 3rd row and tried to install. Here the middle seat has the shoulder belt that comes down from the ceiling and it doesn't seem to lock. We tried doing the install with just the lap belt and with the lap belt attached to the shoulder belt. We tried using the locking clip and we attached the top tether. Nothing helped. We have shitty seatbelt install skills, I guess. We just CANNOT get it tight.

My DH thinks we should ignore the Honda recommendation of 40 lbs for LATCH (it's not even an official recommendation written in the manual, but scouring the internet has told me that's Honda's position, most of the time) as the Radian says it can go to 80 lbs LATCH. LATCH is steel he says and he doesn't think 40-45 lbs of our kid, even at high speeds would break that. We both agree that the 40 lbs is probably a conservative estimate meant to CYA Honda in a lawsuit. However, again, it's not even listed in their manual or on their website or in any official capacity, but I found the info from other car seat freaks who have contacted them. Also, he says, we won't use it past 45 LBS so we won't be trusting it much beyond the supposed limit. I'm not sure about this and I think we may still have a problem installing the Radian FF because it would still just need to be through a belt path and made tight. IDK though as we haven't tried yet.

Now, before we bought the van we tried our Boulevard out in it. We did get a tight RF install with that (and I am guessing we would get a tight FF install as well because of the cool locking clips). I am thinking maybe I should switch the carseats and try the Radian in my Kia. I have no indication that it will work better in there but.... maybe? Do you think that is worth a try? Then she could have the Boulevard in the Odyssey and the Radian in the Kia and we would just wait a while before switching vehicles so that she would mostly be RFing until she outgrows that limit.

Are there any tips for getting a tight seatbelt install with just the seatbelt and the locking clip? Any special tips for just installing with the lap belt?

Is it okay to have the seatbelt pulled over from the side when the captain chair is kind of moved over to a more centered position? Was that affecting our install? Any clue what the heck was affecting us with the 3rd row install?

WWYD?
 
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Bellarose0919

New member
I have been reading around and seeing that maybe I can use LATCH in my Kia with my Radian ???
From another forum, "It is only for the Radian's with SuperLATCH and that is for vehicles manufactured after Sept of 2005 that can be LATCH to 80lbs. Otherwise if not stated in the vehicle manual it is defaulted to 40lbs." I have a 2005 Kia Spectra, not sure about the month but I could find out tomorrow if it was after September. If it was, would I be able to intall my Radian with LATCH (assuming that I can't get a good seatbelt install with it) and install my Boulevard in the Odyssey with seatbelt (because of the awesome built-in locking clips which make the install tight)?
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Actually the Radian defaulted to 48. I don't know Kia's limit off the top of my head. A 2005 my vehicle would have been made in 2004 to very early 2005. Check inside your driver side front door and you'll find that info but September 2005 was the 06 my.

I'll tell you that the only place I got an acceptable install rear-facing in my 02 Ody with the Radian was the third row outboard, braced on the center row seats, and it's difficult even though I'm an old hand at Radians. They didn't have the angle adjuster then, though, that might help. You'll need to twist the buckle stalk down to get a good install in any position in the Ody with that low belt path.

Oh, you might get it with that third row center belt if you twist the stalk down and move the second row seat center to brace on, I never tried that.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Re: Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

Sorry you're having troubles. Since your car was made after 1996, it has locking belts. Gently pull the seatbelt all the way out (heavy on the gently, Hondas are sensitive) and that will lock it. Then add weight and tighten the seatbelt by holding onto the shoulder portion next to the buckle and pulling it tight.

Where are you checking for movement? You only check at the belt path, and you want less than 1".

The Boulevard has built in lockoffs, since you didn't know the term.

I don't know why Honda says 40 pounds, but they do, so I wouldn't advocate going over that.

Wendy
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Actually the Radian defaulted to 48. I don't know Kia's limit off the top of my head. A 2005 my vehicle would have been made in 2004 to very early 2005. Check inside your driver side front door and you'll find that info but September 2005 was the 06 my.

I'll tell you that the only place I got an acceptable install rear-facing in my 02 Ody with the Radian was the third row outboard, braced on the center row seats, and it's difficult even though I'm an old hand at Radians. They didn't have the angle adjuster then, though, that might help. You'll need to twist the buckle stalk down to get a good install in any position in the Ody with that low belt path.

Oh, you might get it with that third row center belt if you twist the stalk down and move the second row seat center to brace on, I never tried that.

Thanks so much for the reply! What is a buckle stalk?
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Re: Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

Sorry you're having troubles. Since your car was made after 1996, it has locking belts. Gently pull the seatbelt all the way out (heavy on the gently, Hondas are sensitive) and that will lock it. Then add weight and tighten the seatbelt by holding onto the shoulder portion next to the buckle and pulling it tight.

Where are you checking for movement? You only check at the belt path, and you want less than 1".

The Boulevard has built in lockoffs, since you didn't know the term.

I don't know why Honda says 40 pounds, but they do, so I wouldn't advocate going over that.

Wendy

Thanks for your reply!

Yes, the other seat belts seem to lock, but I can't get the one in the center to do so. I am not sure if the fact that it comes down from the top middle has anything to do with it. I could just install with the lap belt and not connect the shoulder belt (that comes down from the center top and connects to the lap belt), but I haven't had success with that install either.

Yes, I am checking at the belt path and I know the 1" rule. I have had great success with my Britax installs but maybe I am spoiled by Britax since I always seem to be able to get fantastic installs and seats that feel looser worry me. Still, our installs were all way more than 1" at the base and I know that they aren't safe.

Thanks for letting me know the term!
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Pretty sure the 2001 Odyssey was the only one with that funky lap and shoulder belt in the back. The lap belt works as a regular lap belt. Buckle and tighten by pulling the tail.

The stalk is the female end, where you buckle the seatbelt into. If you can twist it up to three full turns that can lower it, making the buckle get out of the belt path or at the bend, and therefore not loosen or be impossible to tighten in the first place. You could also buckle it in, tighten in, unbuckle, twist the stalk, and then rebuckle. It'll be hard to buckle, but tight. That works well with a lap only belt.

Wendy
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Re: Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

Thanks for your reply!

Yes, the other seat belts seem to lock, but I can't get the one in the center to do so. I am not sure if the fact that it comes down from the top middle has anything to do with it. I could just install with the lap belt and not connect the shoulder belt (that comes down from the center top and connects to the lap belt), but I haven't had success with that install either.

In a 2002 Ody, you don't use the shoulder belt part at all with the third row center belt when installing a car seat. :) You leave the shoulder part disconnected, and manually pull the lap belt strap to tighten, it locks at the latch plate. To get a locking latch plate to lock, it will need to lie flat against the belt, so it is parallel to the belt, not on an angle at all. That's why twisting the buckle stalk up to 3 full turns may help- pull it down more and it may be able to lie flat.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Re: Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

Oh, and if Kia defers, you can use Radians with LATCH up to 48 lbs. in your Kia. :)
 

Pixelated

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Pretty sure the 2001 Odyssey was the only one with that funky lap and shoulder belt in the back. The lap belt works as a regular lap belt. Buckle and tighten by pulling the tail.

I have an 03 Ody and it's got the same type of belt as described in the centre 3rd row. When installing a car seat there, you disconnect the shoulder part and leave it in the ceiling, like Wendy said.

On another note, I've had excellent, easy installs of the Radian FF in the 3rd row outboard with the seat belt. It goes in fine too on the captain's chair behind the driver. I have not tried it on the other Captain's chair but the belt reaching over the gap to get to the captain's chair might make it harder - don't know, haven't tried it.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Pretty sure the 2001 Odyssey was the only one with that funky lap and shoulder belt in the back. The lap belt works as a regular lap belt. Buckle and tighten by pulling the tail.

The stalk is the female end, where you buckle the seatbelt into. If you can twist it up to three full turns that can lower it, making the buckle get out of the belt path or at the bend, and therefore not loosen or be impossible to tighten in the first place. You could also buckle it in, tighten in, unbuckle, twist the stalk, and then rebuckle. It'll be hard to buckle, but tight. That works well with a lap only belt.

Wendy

Nope because mine is a 2002. It has the funky lap and shoulder belt... if by that you mean the shoulder belt comes down from the ceiling and hooks into the lap belt. I have tried it both with the shoulder belt hooked and unhooked. The shoulder belt definitely doesn't lock, but the other belts in the van do. I was just out there again. I re-tried with just the lap belt in the 3rd row and with the captains chair again. I tighten the lap belt as much as it is possible and the seat is still loose (moving more than an inch at the belt path). I got sort of close with the captains chair. I tried reclining the vehicle seat, installing to the point that the seat belt was creating a tilt in the chair, then putting the vehicle seat back up and bracing it against the front seat. It was still moving more than an inch at the belt path.

I have no clue how to get a tight install. My next step is to try it RF in my Kia Spectra with seat belt install and see if it is magically do-able there. Then, the Boulevard can go FF in the Odyssey.

I may try one time more with twisting the stalk. That is okay to do? It's not like twisting the belt?

Thanks for the feedback!
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Re: Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

In a 2002 Ody, you don't use the shoulder belt part at all with the third row center belt when installing a car seat. :) You leave the shoulder part disconnected, and manually pull the lap belt strap to tighten, it locks at the latch plate. To get a locking latch plate to lock, it will need to lie flat against the belt, so it is parallel to the belt, not on an angle at all. That's why twisting the buckle stalk up to 3 full turns may help- pull it down more and it may be able to lie flat.

Thank you!!!! Yes, I wasn't sure if we could do it that way but tried anyway, then tried the lap belt install several times. I will try twisting the buckle stalk. I'm assuming that it is definitely okay to do that? It won't cause a problem in an accident? It's not like twisting the belt?
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Re: Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

Oh, and if Kia defers, you can use Radians with LATCH up to 48 lbs. in your Kia. :)

Thank you. Yes, Kia defers. I'm not sure if I should use latch because of all the SuperLATCH failure stuff I am reading now. But others area saying it is not happening with their Radians... I guess I will have to see if I can get any kind of decent seat belt install in the Kia and if not, check out my LATCH situation.


Thank you all so much for your help!

I wish the Britax seats had higher weight limits. My daughter is only three and has to turn FF which is the whole reason I bought us 5 more RF lbs in the Radian. I thought I would be fine with it when she maxed out her seat but I am actually freaking out a bit. It's not her weight but her age (bone structure) that determines how she fares in an accident and she is still young compared to some kids who get 5+ years out of RF. Reducing her chances of safety in an accident is so scary to do. I'm sure in the years to come RF seats will be tested to much higher weight limits. For now, I'm hoping I can get a secure install with the radian and have her in for a few more months.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
I have an 03 Ody and it's got the same type of belt as described in the centre 3rd row. When installing a car seat there, you disconnect the shoulder part and leave it in the ceiling, like Wendy said.

On another note, I've had excellent, easy installs of the Radian FF in the 3rd row outboard with the seat belt. It goes in fine too on the captain's chair behind the driver. I have not tried it on the other Captain's chair but the belt reaching over the gap to get to the captain's chair might make it harder - don't know, haven't tried it.

Thanks!

I haven't tried her FF or outboard yet. I'm hoping to get a few more months out of RF, at least in one vehicle. Also, I am trying to keep her in the center or close to it because I don't have any other kids so I don't need to put her outboard. It's good to know for future reference though!
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Re: Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

Thank you!!!! Yes, I wasn't sure if we could do it that way but tried anyway, then tried the lap belt install several times. I will try twisting the buckle stalk. I'm assuming that it is definitely okay to do that? It won't cause a problem in an accident? It's not like twisting the belt?

Twisting the belt does weaken the system overall. However, a seatbelt is designed to hold adults who weigh 200+ lbs. Even a heavy child restraint with a child at the maximum weight of a higher weight harnessing seat, usually weighs less than half that combined.

Crash testing was done by IMMI, who manufacture car seat parts (chest clips, buckles, webbing...) and also some seatbelt parts, and they found that even with the belt twisted three times and soaked in juice (which further weakened the fibers) the belt was more than 3 times strong enough to hold the car seat properly secure in a crash. So probably the belt could be twisted MORE than that and not malfunction- but three twists has been settled on as a very, very conservative number to allow as the maximum, because it is MOST DEFINITELY safe.

(This information is in the appendices of the technician training manual, which is available online, if you ever need to refer to the document.)

As far as outboard vs. center, while center is statistically safer, the place where you can get the proper install is the safest one in the vehicle. So if you can get it in properly outboard but not center, don't stress that too much. Rear-facing is incredibly protective in a side-impact crash (the reason that the center seat is statistically safer is side impacts) and any child in a properly used and installed seat is so much safer in a crash, anywhere in the vehicle, than most children in the country that at some point you just have to stop worrying and do what works. :)
 

Bellarose0919

New member
Re: Please help: We FAIL at seatbelt install.

Twisting the belt does weaken the system overall. However, a seatbelt is designed to hold adults who weigh 200+ lbs. Even a heavy child restraint with a child at the maximum weight of a higher weight harnessing seat, usually weighs less than half that combined.

Crash testing was done by IMMI, who manufacture car seat parts (chest clips, buckles, webbing...) and also some seatbelt parts, and they found that even with the belt twisted three times and soaked in juice (which further weakened the fibers) the belt was more than 3 times strong enough to hold the car seat properly secure in a crash. So probably the belt could be twisted MORE than that and not malfunction- but three twists has been settled on as a very, very conservative number to allow as the maximum, because it is MOST DEFINITELY safe.

(This information is in the appendices of the technician training manual, which is available online, if you ever need to refer to the document.)

As far as outboard vs. center, while center is statistically safer, the place where you can get the proper install is the safest one in the vehicle. So if you can get it in properly outboard but not center, don't stress that too much. Rear-facing is incredibly protective in a side-impact crash (the reason that the center seat is statistically safer is side impacts) and any child in a properly used and installed seat is so much safer in a crash, anywhere in the vehicle, than most children in the country that at some point you just have to stop worrying and do what works. :)

Thank you! That last bit,"at some point you just have to stop worrying and do what works" was such good advice but so hard to follow! lol. You do have a point about the securely installed seat putting my DD safer than many kids that I have seen with ridiculously loose straps or ridiculously twisted straps or even broken straps or no seat at all of any kind. I just followed your link and read through your crash story (I actually read a bit of it last year when it happened too) and I know you have an imported Swedish seat to keep your daughter RFing. That's about where my level of intensity about RFing is leading me. I haven't turned her Britax around and she is 39 lbs (full clothed, with shoes, and I weigh her every day). I am waiting for that last lb. She is nearing 4 (September), so I know I have brought her far RF and I hope the Radian will buy us a few more months. It was comforting to see that your other two daughters who were FF survived the accident with no life-altering injuries though. My FF seat will still protect her! :)

I'm going to try the buckle stalk idea with the Ody and then, if that doesn't work, a center RF install in the Kia. If that doesn't work, I will try the outboard positions. Thanks so much for all of your input!
 

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