I have a tech question

HEVY

New member
I know at a seat check parents have the right to refuse installations based on recommended usage, but what happens if they refuse installs by law?
Do you install or refuse? If you refuse do you install how they want or just leave it and let them drive off?
 
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Brigala

CPST Instructor
I leave the decision up to the senior checker. We do have a proper use clause in our law, and I had a parent refuse to turn a 16 month old RF even though he had Dorel seats and the child was nowhere near the required 34" tall (and I suspect may not have been 22 lbs either, but we didn't have a scale at the check so I could only take the parents' word for it). He said to document it and I warned them that I would be writing down their refusal and I helped them install anyway.

Personally, if I were the senior checker I would probably play hard ball and say proper legal use (or at least as close as we can get it given the seat, child, and car we have to work with) or not at all. I would probably pass out some bright pink flier at the top of their clipboard that explains this when they arrive so they don't get surprised by the tech.
 

Shanora

Well-known member
I will not go against the law/minimum recommendations on the car seat. If a parent is unwilling to comply, I will grab the Senior Tech and let them deal with it, if there is no Senior Tech, or I'm doing a private check, I will decline to install the seat the way they want it done, and will refer them to the manual. I refuse to put myself into a position of liability.
 

cowgirlsmommy

New member
A technician should never install the seat for parents. We show them how to do it and check to make sure they got it in right. That being said, if they refused to rear face a 11 month old for example, we would make sure their forward-facing install was correct and note on the paperwork that they refused to rear-face their child and what was done.
 

HEVY

New member
So noting that they refused protects you but the parent winds up leaving with illegal use of the seat. I understand you guys are only there to teach the parent proper use and install.
 

Brigala

CPST Instructor
I will not go against the law/minimum recommendations on the car seat. If a parent is unwilling to comply, I will grab the Senior Tech and let them deal with it, if there is no Senior Tech, or I'm doing a private check, I will decline to install the seat the way they want it done, and will refer them to the manual. I refuse to put myself into a position of liability.

If I'm doing a private check I also would refuse to assist in significant mis-use of the car seat. I might choose to fudge a level line slightly if I absolutely had to in order to fit the vehicle to the seat, but even then only after explaining the potential issues, recommending that they select a different restraint that will fit the vehicle better, and ultimately leaving it up to parental choice.

It hasn't come up yet, but privately I might even refuse to install a FF seat for a child under age two unless there were extenuating circumstances. I don't carry liability insurance and I would be concerned about taking on the liability of appearing to "recommend" something that wasn't best practice. So far, though, the people who have sought me out for private checks have been either parents of infants (first timers) or ERFers or had children well over the age of two (I still recommend NHTSA's guidelines for RF to age four if the child still fits).
 

Shanora

Well-known member
You would refuse to install a seat FFing for a child under 2 years old??? EVEN if they meet all the minimums?
 

Brigala

CPST Instructor
For a private check, maybe. I don't know. It hasn't come up yet.

For a check-up event where SafeKids is taking the liability? No problem.
 

Dmcj13

New member
One of my instructors told parents flat out "That is illegal, I can not allow you to leave like that, we will help you install the seat in the proper and legal way, or the cops will come to discuss it with you." She said that they always instantly comply, not that she would actually call.
 

tiggercat

New member
If it's illegal, we don't do it as a general rule.
For example, we had an American seat come into the last clinic with the child present (two, actually but the second was a pregnant mom who left and purchased a new seat so no install needed) and when we discovered it didn't have the NSM and had American limits and Spanish directions instead of French, we walked the dad through a correct install in a hands off manner and he took the child to buy a new seat. So technically he left illegally, but there wasn't really any other option as he was too tall for my giveaway onside air. Document, document, document!
I have refused to sign off on forward facing installs for underage/underweight kiddos. If they meet the legal mins then ultimately it is the parent's choice, but if the child looks significantly under the lower weight limit, or isn't walking, or under 1, we will insist on a rearfacing install if they wish to continue with the seatcheck. I believe for the last one they were taught both FF and RF installs, but the child left RF as she was underweight and not walking.

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Shanora

Well-known member
I have done that as well. I have a family come in, and want the new seat they bought installed forward facing. Child was under the minimums, and so I showed them how to install it forward-facing safely (the child was maybe 3-4 lbs off the minimum FFing weight limit), but installed it rear-facing for when the child left. I know 100% that they would drive home and install it FFing... so I walked them through how to do it properly, but I was not able to legally install it FFing....
 

bubbaray

New member
Shanora said:
You would refuse to install a seat FFing for a child under 2 years old??? EVEN if they meet all the minimums?

I would never do this. I would recommend best practice, but if the parent chooses to install FFg I would document, show them how to install FFg and leave it at that. I do not see my role as playing hardball at all. I see it as educating parents
 

Brigala

CPST Instructor
I would never do this. I would recommend best practice, but if the parent chooses to install FFg I would document, show them how to install FFg and leave it at that. I do not see my role as playing hardball at all. I see it as educating parents

For me it's not about the hardball thing. I have no problem if the child meets the minimums helping them at a SK event. I am just not very comfortable about my own liability helping someone to use a seat in a way that doesn't follow best practice. Like I said it hasn't come up, but if someone contacted me asking for help installing a FF seat for, say, a 13 month old baby, no extenuating circumstances (like doctor's orders for constant vomiting or something like that), I might suggest they go to a public event instead. If I had liability insurance it would be different.
 

monica-m

CPST Instructor
Most of the check events I work have at least 1 police officer present. They will come and discuss things with a parent/caregiver if necessary to get them to at least meet the legal minimums.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
It's different where I do checks. At least one organization I work with has MAYBE one giveaway seat (a Tribute) per check event. If that. If parents come in with a FF convertible for a less than 1 year old, we will not help them install it FF again, we will only help them RF it. But if they come in with a 1 year old in a Turbo booster, and our giveaway seat has already been given away- there's nothing we can do unless we happen to have cops there. We're not cops, we can't legally keep them there or ticket them. We can only make the kid as safe as possible (make sure the screws are in, lock the belt if possible) and tell them they need to go straight to a store to buy an appropriate seat. And give a list of possibilities. But, if there's no one there to watch the kids while the driver goes and gets a seat, what can we do? We're not licensed to provide childcare plus we have an event to work. Kid has to leave in the illegal seat. So we document, document, document. It comes down to IS there a legal way to use the seat and they're refusing, or is the kid in a seat that cannot legally be used but there's no better way available than to send them to get a new seat? That determines what we do.
 

bubbaray

New member
KQ just curious what do you do if the cold arrives in a seat (bucket say) that they are over the weight and height for. One parent. No seats do give away. Do you let them drive away in the illegally used seat?

ETA. Hit sent before I meant too. Not picking on you but just curious and your post is the easiest for me to quote. We don't have fee seats here so I would just document.



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ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
All we could do is tell them the seat doesn't fit the kid, talk them through a tight install (hopefully without having to touch), tell them it may fail in a crash, tell them they need a new seat, point them to resources if needed, and document up the yin-yang.

I mean, what are we supposed to do? Call the cops so they'll get a ticket and still not have a safe seat, and they never ask for car seat help again? There's nothing. I did once have a family follow me home and give them my own seats, because they needed three new, couldn't afford them, but didn't qualify for their local giveaway programs (and one kid they had nothing appropriate for anyway.) I happened to have an Avenue, Uptown and Apex I wasn't remotely using and so I gave them away, and one of my TB shoulder adjuster straps. But I cannot do that for every family, obviously.
 

Kac

Ambassador - CPS Technician
I've had to do what KQ is talking about and it sucks. The main thing is to make the child leave safer than they arrived. It sucks when it's not the safest, but safer is the goal.

I wouldn't do anything illegal.

I also wouldn't force a parent to RF a child that meets the minimums. I will suggest it, but if they don't want to, it's their decision. The decisions are always left to the caregiver. I would never refuse to make a FFing 13 month old safer by checking their seat.
 

NannyMom

Well-known member
You would refuse to install a seat FFing for a child under 2 years old??? EVEN if they meet all the minimums?
At a seat check event, I would begrudgingly help them install their seat FF, after talking to them and having sr checker talk to them.

At my private seat checks, nope. I will not help a parent install a FF seat for a child under 2yrs. When a parent calls me, I get the info on child, vehicle, and seat. If child is under 2, I say "So we are doing it rear facing...". If parent refuses, I tell them to contact KISS and where a seat check event might be soon. I've only ever had a problem with 1 parent that wanted a private seat check.


Most of the check events I work have at least 1 police officer present. They will come and discuss things with a parent/caregiver if necessary to get them to at least meet the legal minimums.
:yeahthat: When I work at events, we are usually cop heavy on techs, and several always show up in full uniform. I can't imagine with cops there we'd have a problem with a parent not wanting to follow the law. And another one of the cops is an accident investigator or something like that. So she is very good at convincing parents.
 

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