please verify

Today I had a brief chat with a health nurse when I went in for my daughter's immunizations. When asked what seat she was in, I told her a Britax Frontier XT. She was a bit surprised that she was still in a harness (she is close to 5) but I reminded her that my DD is only 29.5 lbs.

I did ask her (more to see what she would say ) what I should do if she outgrew her frontier by height before she was 40 lbs.

What I got was weird advice. She told me that carseat laws only apply until children are 6 years old. So then I could do whatever I wanted. When I pointed out that if I boostered my DD at age 6, but not 40lbs, this would be against manufactures guidelines. Then she said that it wouldn't be illegal, but that Britax wouldn't cover me if there was an accident. Huh?

Now this might be a moot point, since although my DD is very tall, she still has at least 1.5'' left in the harness, but I wanted to clarify what the laws actually are. I know I've asked this before, and the consensus was the it was better to booster before 40lbs than to be in a too small harness. When I brought this up, the nurse said that 'oh, the harness a bit under the shoulders is ok too". Now I am pretty sure that is not correct.

(nursing at laptop...)

where are you located? car seat laws vary by province.

your daughter can stay rear facing until she maxes out the seat by height or weight. the shoulder straps can be at or below for rear facing but depending on the seat not all seats allow the top slots to be used in rear facing, and there must be at least 1" of shell above the head.

VanIsleMommy said:

(nursing at laptop...)

where are you located? car seat laws vary by province.

your daughter can stay rear facing until she maxes out the seat by height or weight. the shoulder straps can be at or below for rear facing but depending on the seat not all seats allow the top slots to be used in rear facing, and there must be at least 1" of shell above the head.

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I'm in Alberta. She is already forward facing in a Britax Frontier XT.

momtoesther said:

I'm in Alberta. She is already forward facing in a Britax Frontier XT.

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right, frontier... sorry it's been a long day, my brain is mush

from http://www.ama.ab.ca/automotive/child-car-seats

Alberta law – drivers must transport any child under 18 kg. (40 pounds)/ six years in a child car seat that conforms to Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and that the seat must be used according to manufacturer’s guidelines.

What if my child is too tall for his/her child seat but weighs less than 40 pounds?

Children are safest in a forward-facing car seat until 18 kg and the Alberta law requires this. Do not move a child to a booster seat before they are 18 kg.

Booster seats are not designed to be used before 18 kg and therefore do not protect a child as well as car seats. Car seats have an internal harness that holds the child in the seat, while booster seats simply place the child in a better position for the adult designed seatbelt to work more efficiently. Several new seats can be used for children as a forward-facing car seat until the child is 18 kg (or more) and then converted to use as a booster seat. Some are available for children up to 114 centimetres tall.

VanIsleMommy said:

right, frontier... sorry it's been a long day, my brain is mush

from http://www.ama.ab.ca/automotive/child-car-seats

Alberta law – drivers must transport any child under 18 kg. (40 pounds)/ six years in a child car seat that conforms to Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and that the seat must be used according to manufacturer’s guidelines.

What if my child is too tall for his/her child seat but weighs less than 40 pounds?

Children are safest in a forward-facing car seat until 18 kg and the Alberta law requires this. Do not move a child to a booster seat before they are 18 kg.

Booster seats are not designed to be used before 18 kg and therefore do not protect a child as well as car seats. Car seats have an internal harness that holds the child in the seat, while booster seats simply place the child in a better position for the adult designed seatbelt to work more efficiently. Several new seats can be used for children as a forward-facing car seat until the child is 18 kg (or more) and then converted to use as a booster seat. Some are available for children up to 114 centimetres tall.

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Ah, so that is true. PRoblem is, my DD is already 110 cm tall. They don't really say what to do then. Also, is it 6 years old AND 40 lbs OR 40lbs?

the wording is a little vague and I'm in BC, but I would interpret that as OR.

so at 6 if she has outgrown her harness by height she would have to move into a booster. I beleive there are high back boosters rated for 30 pounds?

sorry I haven't been terribly helpful, hopefully another tech can chime in. I have a combo of baby brain with an infant and a three year old that mentally torments me all day LOL

Canada does not have *any* booster that will harness before 40#.

In the US, the Graco High Back TurboBooster, starts booster weight at 30#. It would be illegal to use an American one. Trudy might know if they are the same (or not for your special case).

IF she is too tall for the Frontier and not 40#, not sure you have much of a choice. There are no seats on the market w/ a taller harness. The Regent, American made only, used to have similar/taller harness than the Frontier. It's not made anymore and it would be illegal to import.

There are some travel vests I read from a link on the Special Need links once that could be an option, thought it said they were Canadian???

I read and understand the law as 6 AND 40# b/c that's the Canadian minimum, I thought...

And, last but most important. I was in about the same place you were a year ago and my ~35# 5yo was getting too tall for his RN and in the last year he's gain more weight than the last 2 years together. He's also (and someone here said it and I thought they were crazy and didn't get it) started to grow legs instead of torso! Our entire family is long torso w/ short legs, but still he's grown legs, despite his long torso.

Either way, she'll gain a few #s over the next couple years as she grows those last couple inches and there is a difference between a 29# child vs a 36# or even 38# six or seven year old that no longer fits height wise in a Frontier, since in this case there would be nothing else you could do...NO idea what I'd do, I was having a freak fit over 0.5#, so *not* suggesting you break the law. Saying, safety wise a tall 38# 7yo must (????) be much safer than a short heavy 40# 4yo, right? Logically anyway, will wait for a tech to attack my opinion if it's dead wrong, please! Though, one tech way back when I was wondering what to do for a spare seat said to put heavy boots on him and some rocks (joking) in his pockets so he'd be 40#s.

At any rate, I understand your worry and fear, had it myself for the last year or two...so sorry!

tam

http://www.safekidscanada.ca/professionals/advocacy/documents/26794-boosterseatlegislationchart.pdf

Children must ride in a car seat until they are a minimum of 6 years old or over 40 pounds (18 kg).

there you go "or"

however, http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-stage3-booster-seats-1086.htm

Your child must weigh at least 18 kg (40 lbs) and meet the height guidelines in your booster seat user guide.

tam is correct, as per transport canada law no boosters are legal for use below 40 pounds, I'm thinking of a US seat.

just out of curiosity do you know her seated torso height?

If she outgrows the highest harness on the market by height before she meets the weight minimum for a booster, that would be a "tough choice." You could legally put her in a belt alone or you could (possibly illegally) put her in a booster she didn't meet the minimums for. If it were my child, I'd choose the booster, of course, because a poorly positioned belt is definitely not going to protect her better than a properly positioned one regardless of weight.

Now, in the states there has been some discussion that because of the way the law is written, proper use clauses in most states don't necessarily apply to children old enough to no longer be covered by the child restraint law. I haven't read your province's law, so I can't speak directly to that (and I'm not a lawyer either) but if you look up the actual text of your child restraint and seatbelt laws you may find that this interpretation could apply, and technical misuse of a booster might not be technically illegal for a child over 6 and therefore no longer required to be in one by the law.

ok I've had some sleep so I can somewhat process all the info now LOL...

Alberta does not have any booster laws, so correct me if I'm wrong but once she's 6 she could legally go right into a seatbelt. However, if it were my child, I would put her in a booster even if it's against the guidelines. I would call the car seat manufacturer first, to see if they can offer any assistance. For example if they sell a seat in the US that is rated for 30 pounds and has been crash tested as such, but the same seat just has a different sticker on it and is marked for 40 pounds and up to meet canadian guidelines, I would be fine with putting my child in that seat.

I would not however, be comfortable having my child in an outgrown harnessed seat especially by height though, as the head is not protected.

So I can't recommend that you use a seat against manufacturer's guidelines or transport canada's laws, but in a very unique case where the child doesn't fit in any car seat on the market we have to try to make that child safe somehow.

AB law can be confusing for parents and even for professionals.

Here's the law:

Children for the purposes of the car seat law are defined as less than 6yrs old or less than 40lbs. If a child is over 40lbs they are no longer required by law to be in a harness provided they are properly restrained in whatever the parent chooses to use next.

So a 35lb child who is 5 yr and 11.5 months old must be restrained in a properly fitting harness according to our law.

Once a child is 6yrs old or over 40lbs, they fall under the seatbelt law. The seatbelt law states that the seatbelt must be worn in the correct orientation - shoulder belt across the chest and lap belt over the lap. Depending on the area of the province you are pulled over in, you could get a ticket for a child who doesn't pass the 5-step test. But in technicality, as long as they have the shoulder belt in front, the lap belt on top of their lap, and it's reasonably tightened, then it's considered correct orientation.

Of course kids who don't fit the seatbelt rarely keep it in the correct spots and so most kids who should be in a booster are going to have the shoulder portion tucked behind their back or under their arms - actions which can be extremely dangerous and lead to permanent paralysis even.

So let's say your child is 6yrs old and no longer required to be in a harness, so you decide to use a booster seat... If you're using a booster seat, you are required to use it properly. If you're using it incorrectly, you can get a ticket for improper use of a booster seat. (I am unsure of what part of the law that type of ticket would be written under though.)

So in technicality, putting a 35lb 6yr old in to a booster would be illegal because the child isn't yet 40lbs and you'd be using it against instructions. However - if a child has outgrown the tallest seat on the market by height and isn't yet 40lbs, you can bet your money that I'm going to use a booster against instructions before putting my child directly in to a seatbelt that doesn't fit properly.

You are correct that a ff'ing seat is outgrown by height once the shoulders go above the top harness height of a seat. It is unfortunate that health nurses give out information like that when they don't have all the facts straight, but most of them don't have training in child restraints and it is just part of the many things they have to touch on during appointments.

VanIsleMommy said:

just out of curiosity do you know her seated torso height?

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Her torso height is 17 3/4''. Her overall height is 43''. She is very very close to outgrowing the maestro by height. I'm crossing my fingers that she doesn't grow too much before the school year is over because she rides in a Maestro as her daycare seat and I can't afford to replace it right now I guess worse case scenario is that I arrive at my day care provider's house early enough to uninstall the frontier from my van and reinstall it in hers every day.

I weighed her today with her rubber boots and fleece jacket and she is 31.8 lbs. Last week at the health unit she weighed 29 lbs in just pants and tshirt.

If the Canadian Frontier XT is the same height as the US Frontier 85, she should have quite a bit of growing room in that. It will be an issue when she outgrows the Maestro, but at least you don't need to worry about the Frontier yet.

She should put on a lot of weight in the next several inches before the Frontier becomes too small. And I doubt an officer is going to pull a 38 lb kid out of a properly fitting booster and weigh her by the side of the street.

Well they DO have roadside stops for checks there, sometimes with scales- but it's probably unlikely.

Brigala said:

If the Canadian Frontier XT is the same height as the US Frontier 85, she should have quite a bit of growing room in that. It will be an issue when she outgrows the Maestro, but at least you don't need to worry about the Frontier yet.

She should put on a lot of weight in the next several inches before the Frontier becomes too small. And I doubt an officer is going to pull a 38 lb kid out of a properly fitting booster and weigh her by the side of the street.

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This area does do roadside checks, and the techs at those are health nurses who have a pretty good idea of what kids weigh. When they see kids who are obviously under 40lbs, they'll ticket and make the parents produce proof of weight if they want to have the ticket dropped.

You'd never guess my 6yo was just under the 40# mark, especially if he had his polar fleece jacket on. He's tall enough, just stick thin.

I very highly doubt a Health Nurse is going to look at an obvious 6-7yo (and how tall/thin) they are and say, "hum, you look more like 38#, not the 40# you're required to weigh for a booster seat" and then continue on to weigh them. They know, as well as we do that the intent of the 40# law wasn't to penalize stick thin 6-7yo that have outgrown the most expensive seat(s) on the market.

Now, when my guy is standing directly beside his friend that is a year younger and a couple inches and I know my guy isn't 40#, I can (obviously) guess that his friend also not 40#, is probably 36-38#, but beyond that, weight guessing is a guess. They wouldn't think anything of a 7yo in a booster. Plus, there was that 6yo didn't need one law there.

Or, you could go w/ that suggestion which was to put rocks in my guys pockets when driving in a booster at 39.5#. LOL And, yes kidding.

tam

tam_shops said:

You'd never guess my 6yo was just under the 40# mark, especially if he had his polar fleece jacket on. He's tall enough, just stick thin.

I very highly doubt a Health Nurse is going to look at an obvious 6-7yo (and how tall/thin) they are and say, "hum, you look more like 38#, not the 40# you're required to weigh for a booster seat" and then continue on to weigh them. They know, as well as we do that the intent of the 40# law wasn't to penalize stick thin 6-7yo that have outgrown the most expensive seat(s) on the market.

Now, when my guy is standing directly beside his friend that is a year younger and a couple inches and I know my guy isn't 40#, I can (obviously) guess that his friend also not 40#, is probably 36-38#, but beyond that, weight guessing is a guess. They wouldn't think anything of a 7yo in a booster. Plus, there was that 6yo didn't need one law there.

Or, you could go w/ that suggestion which was to put rocks in my guys pockets when driving in a booster at 39.5#. LOL And, yes kidding.

tam

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Tam, health nurses here are part of weighing a kid. I have seen enough kids and heard enough weights with being a technician for this long that I am usually able to tell a child's weight within a lb or two. A 33lb kids and a 41lb kid who are the same height look very very different.

For what it's worth, when I guess a child's weight my primary factors are face, combined with length of body and limbs. A fluffy sweater or winter jacket isn't a problem in most cases if you can see the entire length of the child.

I'm sure that most techs who have done this awhile can tell you the same thing about being able to tell a child's weight within a pound or two. So if you imagine how much longer health nurses have been weighing kids for, then combine that with them being technicians - well, I would say they're pretty accurate most of the time too. And they err on the side of issuing a ticket and making the parent produce proof of weight if there's a disagreement about 35lbs vs. 42lbs based on what I've been told by people involved in roadside checks.

Obviously some kids are going to be harder to tell weight by looking, but when you do it enough it's easy to get pretty accurate.

well, technically, it sounds like she was correct in all info, an yet completely lacking in info that actually helps you.

A harness that is slightly below the shoulders is fairly non worrisome in an older child. Spinal compression generally occurs when the harness originates a significant distance below shoulder height (I can't remember what the exact angle measurement is off the top of my head, but a few millimeters won't get you there), so if the choice is *just barely* below the shoulders and underweight in a booster I would probably go with the harness myself if it was a matter of just buying a couple of months of weight gain until a booster provides a good fit. If I had a really excellent fitting booster, I would probably go that route.