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  1. #1
    CPS Technician ericarizo's Avatar
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    FF seats that do well un-tethered

    What are they?
    Last edited by ericarizo; 04-01-2012 at 05:01 PM.
    Erica: CPST. Mom to 5 beautiful Children: Roberto(17.5)Seat belt, Marayah(13)Seat belt, Dauntae(7.5)Bubble Bum, Connext LBB, Literider LBB, Turbo LBB, Keiani(5) Pkwy HBB, Affix HBB, Amp HBB, Santiago(3)Frontier85

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  3. #2
    CPS Fanatic Brianna's Avatar
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    Radian and Nautilus are two, I don't remember if there are others.

    Sent from my DROID4 using Car-Seat.Org

    The godkids are growing!
    J 9/09 and J&A 1/15

  4. #3
    CPS Technician ericarizo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianna
    Radian and Nautilus are two, I don't remember if there are others.

    Sent from my DROID4 using Car-Seat.Org
    Do you think that counts for the Argos70?
    Erica: CPST. Mom to 5 beautiful Children: Roberto(17.5)Seat belt, Marayah(13)Seat belt, Dauntae(7.5)Bubble Bum, Connext LBB, Literider LBB, Turbo LBB, Keiani(5) Pkwy HBB, Affix HBB, Amp HBB, Santiago(3)Frontier85

  5. #4
    CPS Fanatic Brianna's Avatar
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    Other than removing the harness slots, I'm not sure if there were other changes to the shell. I would like to think it would perform as well as the Nautilus untethered. I'll be following this thread because I have an Argos and I'm curious too.

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    The godkids are growing!
    J 9/09 and J&A 1/15

  6. #5
    CPS Fanatic StillThankful's Avatar
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    Here is a list of top performers untethered in the past:

    http://www.car-seat.org/showpost.php...5&postcount=18

    C~9/06 Boostered in FR85 Livia & Maui C~2/09 Boostered in GN Daisy & Julia
    Driving in 2005 Toyota Camry & 1994 Honda Accord

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  8. #6
    Carseat Crazy soph's mom's Avatar
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    Crazy to see that the Eddie Bauer 3n1 actually performs well in this. I got the seat bc I liked the looks and thought it would last forever before I knew more. It's served well as a convertible (I know she'll outgrow it and I have my eye on a Radian) and actually installed well in our Volvo and Jeep. (we were very lucky!) I'm just impressed that it did well in this test since its a bad booster and newborn seat. I'm very surprised that the majority of the Britax seats did not do well...
    Soph- 9-10-10 riding in radians RXT, XTSL, and 65SL
    John- 5-03-13 our angel...
    Rucker- 10-14-14 riding in a coccoro & snugride
    (Poor guy- took me over a month to add his info!)

  9. #7
    Admin - CPST Instructor Kecia's Avatar
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    As techs, I think we need to be very careful when it comes to recommending specific CRs for situations without a tether. I know we like to think we have the best solutions for less-than-ideal situations (it certainly helps us feel better about situations which involve our own kids) but the reality is that we have no idea if an untethered Radian is actually better than an untethered Recaro Young Sport in a real crash in a real vehicle. As I've stated numerous times before - FMVSS 213 compliance test data is only relevant if you happen to drive around with your kids secured on a standardized test bench. 213 compliance data doesn't even tell us how a CR would perform when installed with a 3-pt belt! Considering that the vast majority of seatbelt-installed CRs on the road right now are installed with lap/shoulder belts - I'd say that 213 compliance data is fairly irrelevant.

    I do believe, in general, that a CR with a low center of gravity which installs very tightly and gets as close to flush with your vehicle seat as possible (so the child's head is starting off at a point as close to the vehicle seatback as possible) is going to help.

    The other thing that can *really* help is adjusting the position of the seat in front of the untethered CR if and when that's possible to allow more room for HE before contact occurs.

    For techs with access to a current LATCH Manual - I would direct you to pg 64 and the section on "Options if no suitable TA exists".

    Me & the kids at Dorel


  10. #8
    CPS Technician ericarizo's Avatar
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    I am looking for a seat for my own personal vehicle which does not have a TA spot. I was not asking for someone else's child or vehicle. I currently have a Argos70 that was just purchased and just wondered how it would do UN-tethered.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kecia View Post
    As techs, I think we need to be very careful when it comes to recommending specific CRs for situations without a tether. I know we like to think we have the best solutions for less-than-ideal situations (it certainly helps us feel better about situations which involve our own kids) but the reality is that we have no idea if an untethered Radian is actually better than an untethered Recaro Young Sport in a real crash in a real vehicle. As I've stated numerous times before - FMVSS 213 compliance test data is only relevant if you happen to drive around with your kids secured on a standardized test bench. 213 compliance data doesn't even tell us how a CR would perform when installed with a 3-pt belt! Considering that the vast majority of seatbelt-installed CRs on the road right now are installed with lap/shoulder belts - I'd say that 213 compliance data is fairly irrelevant.

    I do believe, in general, that a CR with a low center of gravity which installs very tightly and gets as close to flush with your vehicle seat as possible (so the child's head is starting off at a point as close to the vehicle seatback as possible) is going to help.

    The other thing that can *really* help is adjusting the position of the seat in front of the untethered CR if and when that's possible to allow more room for HE before contact occurs.

    For techs with access to a current LATCH Manual - I would direct you to pg 64 and the section on "Options if no suitable TA exists".
    Erica: CPST. Mom to 5 beautiful Children: Roberto(17.5)Seat belt, Marayah(13)Seat belt, Dauntae(7.5)Bubble Bum, Connext LBB, Literider LBB, Turbo LBB, Keiani(5) Pkwy HBB, Affix HBB, Amp HBB, Santiago(3)Frontier85

  11. #9
    Admin - CPS Technician LISmama810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericarizo
    I am looking for a seat for my own personal vehicle which does not have a TA spot. I was not asking for someone else's child or vehicle. I currently have a Argos70 that was just purchased and just wondered how it would do UN-tethered.
    But you're asking in a public forum where other people might have the same question. Whether it's for your child or another child, Kecia's points still apply.

    The Nautilus gets low HIC numbers untethered in compliance testing. How that translates to the Argos in a real-life car and crash is anybody's guess.

  12. #10
    CPS Technician Kac's Avatar
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    I feel comfortable with my Nautilus and RXT in my car that doesn't have any tethers.
    Kacie, CPST.
    Aunt to SIX little loves between the ages of two weeks and seven years!

  13. #11
    CPS Technician bethng's Avatar
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    I know that the special needs seat...."spirit?".....does not have to be tethered if using the long belt path to install. And that seat will accomodate a child over 100 lbs (i believe). I cant help but wonder if the same theory would apply to the Frontier as well? No data to back that thought up. But its something to think about. Maybe someday britax will crash test this ......or maybe they have.

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    Beth CPST and special needs trained Mom to Bailey ...22 and driving! Skylar- 17yrs-and also driving! Molly-14 yrs -70+ pounds passing the 5 step test and Avery -10 yrs - 55+ pounds, riding in a redd performance sport booster.

  14. #12
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    Quote Originally Posted by bethng View Post
    I know that the special needs seat...."spirit?".....does not have to be tethered if using the long belt path to install. And that seat will accomodate a child over 100 lbs (i believe). I cant help but wonder if the same theory would apply to the Frontier as well? No data to back that thought up. But its something to think about. Maybe someday britax will crash test this ......or maybe they have.

    Sent from my iPad using Car-Seat.Org
    I've seen it discussed quite a bit that the lbp on frontier would hold the upper part of the seat back in a tether-like fashion. Between the radian and frontier, though, I would go w/ the radian untethered because it is rated to its full 80# w/out tt and the fr85 requires it after 65, which gives me something to think about. Also, the long belt path on the frontier is only for use with lap/shoulder and can't be used w/ lap belt only-according to 1 post britax said it failed w/ lbp in lap belt only. That tells me that the head excursion (or another parameter but he is most obvious) on the lbp w/ lap belt only is greater than the excursion on sbp w/ lap belt only so even though we may reduce excursion by having the shoulder belt over the upper portion on lbp, we don't know if it's more or less than what we lose in switching from sbp to lbp on the bottom. Therefore, I don't feel that we can surmise lbp w/ lap-shoulder has less excursion than sbp. It may have less, but I don't think we can say that based simply on switching to lbp.

  15. #13
    Car-Seat.org Ambassador Patriot201's Avatar
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    Quote Originally Posted by Syllieann View Post
    I've seen it discussed quite a bit that the lbp on frontier would hold the upper part of the seat back in a tether-like fashion. Between the radian and frontier, though, I would go w/ the radian untethered because it is rated to its full 80# w/out tt and the fr85 requires it after 65, which gives me something to think about. Also, the long belt path on the frontier is only for use with lap/shoulder and can't be used w/ lap belt only-according to 1 post britax said it failed w/ lbp in lap belt only. That tells me that the head excursion (or another parameter but he is most obvious) on the lbp w/ lap belt only is greater than the excursion on sbp w/ lap belt only so even though we may reduce excursion by having the shoulder belt over the upper portion on lbp, we don't know if it's more or less than what we lose in switching from sbp to lbp on the bottom. Therefore, I don't feel that we can surmise lbp w/ lap-shoulder has less excursion than sbp. It may have less, but I don't think we can say that based simply on switching to lbp.
    I think Beth was just discussing a theory. I don't think she was implying that we should "play God" and do this. It was just a theory she had based on the performance of the special needs seat.


    “Nearly all the best things that came to me in life have been unexpected, unplanned by me.” ~Carl Sandburg
    Learning to cope with the unexpected...

  16. #14
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot201 View Post
    I think Beth was just discussing a theory. I don't think she was implying that we should "play God" and do this. It was just a theory she had based on the performance of the special needs seat.
    I didn't mean to come across as critical of her, just sharing my own thoughts on it and why I might still opt for the radian. It does still pass with lbp with l/s and no tt up to 65# so I wouldn't say anyone that made this choice was playing God. And who knows? Maybe it is better-I'd love to see the numbers on it. We've got an annoying lap belt only position w/ no headrest that I need to figure something out for eventually.

  17. #15
    Car-Seat.org Ambassador Patriot201's Avatar
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    Quote Originally Posted by Syllieann View Post
    We've got an annoying lap belt only position w/ no headrest that I need to figure something out for eventually.
    Does that position have a tether anchor?

    You said you'll have to figure out something "eventually." I assume this means you are good for now but are looking for a solution for the future? How old will your children be when you need to use this position?


    “Nearly all the best things that came to me in life have been unexpected, unplanned by me.” ~Carl Sandburg
    Learning to cope with the unexpected...

  18. #16
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot201 View Post
    Does that position have a tether anchor?

    You said you'll have to figure out something "eventually." I assume this means you are good for now but are looking for a solution for the future? How old will your children be when you need to use this position?
    No anchor yet. We are under gm free retrofit program and I've made a few phone calls but so far the 1st dealer seems to not want to bother with it. I'm going to try another dealer today. We're good for now because both kids fit rf still but once ds goes ff I will need something there. I think I have 6-12 months before that happens.

  19. #17
    CPS Technician bethng's Avatar
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    Re: FF seats that do well un-tethered

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot201 View Post
    I think Beth was just discussing a theory. I don't think she was implying that we should "play God" and do this. It was just a theory she had based on the performance of the special needs seat.

    just a thought. Not saying everyone should go out and use LBP on their frontier and not tether it. It is interesting though that a seat that will hold a heaver child then the frontier does not have to be tethered if using the LBP.
    Beth CPST and special needs trained Mom to Bailey ...22 and driving! Skylar- 17yrs-and also driving! Molly-14 yrs -70+ pounds passing the 5 step test and Avery -10 yrs - 55+ pounds, riding in a redd performance sport booster.

  20. #18
    CPST Instructor Carrie_R's Avatar
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    The LATCH manual discusses long belt path (or serpentine belly path) specifically as something to consider when there is no tether anchor available. So personally, if I had a vehicle with lap-shoulder and no TA, I would probably first consider seats that had this as an option. The Frontier is one, but another option is the ProSport. Recaro is confident enough in their tether-less installs that they actually require the tether to be removed after 52lbs, and the seat may only be installed w the lap and shoulder belt after that weight.
    Down to just a spare Radian, folded in the hall closet for my Godbaby.

    Check out this thread for a Pilot overview!

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