Sears and non-compliant seats

tam_shops · Jan 8, 2012

I may have misunderstood, does that mean in my old style GN, I can *legally* FF a 20# 9mth old? (or one year old if that's the rule). Needless to say, I wouldn't but when I tell people things, I like to be accurate.

I'd skate around the two as well, so as to not tell them they can, even if they can, you know the seats say, "22#" vs the law is 22#, if the law itself has not changed.

tam

misty073 · Jan 8, 2012

I was just wondering as I have never really paid much attention to the stickers on my seats but I noticed today that my booster has 212 on it and my carseats have 213 and 213.2 so would the new standards be new numbers or do they just change the existing wording on those numbers...if this makes sense lol

featherhead · Jan 8, 2012

misty073 said:
I was just wondering as I have never really paid much attention to the stickers on my seats but I noticed today that my booster has 212 on it and my carseats have 213 and 213.2 so would the new standards be new numbers or do they just change the existing wording on those numbers...if this makes sense lol

The booster should be 213.2. The different numbers are for the different stages. I don't think they changed with the regulations.

snowbird25ca · Jan 8, 2012

featherhead said:
The booster should be 213.2. The different numbers are for the different stages. I don't think they changed with the regulations.

The numbers designate the type of seat it is - for example, a seat with CMVSS 213.1 is an infant seat, a seat with CMVSS 213 and 213.1 is an infant/child seat, and a seat with 213, 213.1, and 213.2 is an infant/child/booster seat.

You're right that the numbers didn't change with the changes in the regulation - what changed was the wording and definitions within those numbers - testing requirements, weight ranges, etc.

Pixelated · Jan 8, 2012

tam_shops said:
I may have misunderstood, does that mean in my old style GN, I can *legally* FF a 20# 9mth old? (or one year old if that's the rule). Needless to say, I wouldn't but when I tell people things, I like to be accurate.

I'd skate around the two as well, so as to not tell them they can, even if they can, you know the seats say, "22#" vs the law is 22#, if the law itself has not changed.

tam

If your older GN says 20lbs plus whatever age (I don't remember if it says a year or not) then yes, you may FF a 20lbs 1 year old in that seat.

The crash test standards changed, the laws did not. But in BC they sort of mesh together, so on 2012 compliant seats a child must be 22lbs AND walking AND 1 year old (because in BC the minimum is 1 and 20).

I phrase it also as 'the new standards require a child to be 22lbs and walking unassisted to forward face but we encourage rear facing as long as possible blah blah blah' and unless some asks me specifically about their seat for forward facing, I don't necessarily volunteer the difference. Most people I see rear face past the minimum anyway, and I'm not being dishonest. It's super confusing trying to explain the scenarios. Do you think that's wrong?

snowbird25ca · Jan 8, 2012

Pixelated said:
If your older GN says 20lbs plus whatever age (I don't remember if it says a year or not) then yes, you may FF a 20lbs 1 year old in that seat.

The crash test standards changed, the laws did not. But in BC they sort of mesh together, so on 2012 compliant seats a child must be 22lbs AND walking AND 1 year old (because in BC the minimum is 1 and 20).

I phrase it also as 'the new standards require a child to be 22lbs and walking unassisted to forward face but we encourage rear facing as long as possible blah blah blah' and unless some asks me specifically about their seat for forward facing, I don't necessarily volunteer the difference. Most people I see rear face past the minimum anyway, and I'm not being dishonest. It's super confusing trying to explain the scenarios. Do you think that's wrong?

Nope, I don't think that's wrong at all. In my experience giving parents multiple scenarios don't really benefit anyone. I also find most people I see rf beyond the minimums too.

I will say, that I am telling parents who ask about ff'ing a child at 20lbs in their 20lb minimum ff'ing seat that its' "technically legal, but not something I would recommend or support." I'll expand to tell them that there was a change in carseat standards and that one of the changes was a change in the minimum weight limit for ff'ing. And then I tell them that while they can't have their seat certified to the new standard, they can increase their child's safety by following the higher minimums before turning their child ff'ing. I think this is a reasonable discussion to have with some parents who are pushing the 20lb minimum issue on an old seat - perhaps not all, but some anyways.

canadiangie · Jan 8, 2012

Pixelated said:
If your older GN says 20lbs plus whatever age (I don't remember if it says a year or not) then yes, you may FF a 20lbs 1 year old in that seat.

The crash test standards changed, the laws did not. But in BC they sort of mesh together, so on 2012 compliant seats a child must be 22lbs AND walking AND 1 year old (because in BC the minimum is 1 and 20).

I phrase it also as 'the new standards require a child to be 22lbs and walking unassisted to forward face but we encourage rear facing as long as possible blah blah blah' and unless some asks me specifically about their seat for forward facing, I don't necessarily volunteer the difference. Most people I see rear face past the minimum anyway, and I'm not being dishonest. It's super confusing trying to explain the scenarios. Do you think that's wrong?[/QUOTE]

No, I don't think you're wrong. I tend to offer just a Coles notes version on most things unless I'm prompted to explain further. It's not being dishonest, rather it's knowing how not to overwhelm parents and caregivers. To me its part of being professional. My job is to educate, but I'm not a professor guiding a lecture, kwim? Especially when it comes to the new standards I think less is probably more. As you said, it's very confusing for even us (hard to know if that's because our brains are already so jam packed full of a billion other CPS related tidbits or because the new standards are truly that confusing, lol) and so I can only guess that most parents/caregivers would be just fine (and grateful) for just the need-to-know sort of stuff.

Just my 2 cents..

Pixelated · Jan 8, 2012

snowbird25ca said:
Nope, I don't think that's wrong at all. In my experience giving parents multiple scenarios don't really benefit anyone. I also find most people I see rf beyond the minimums too.

I will say, that I am telling parents who ask about ff'ing a child at 20lbs in their 20lb minimum ff'ing seat that its' "technically legal, but not something I would recommend or support."

This says it perfectly. Thank you. I'm going to shamelessly plagiarise you when I talk to parents!

tam_shops · Jan 9, 2012

Love that BC goes that extra bit!

Thanks, got the phrasing too!

And, no I don't give too much information either, most people's eyes glaze over anyway! LOL

And, not sure if it's a new thing, but personally I can count the number of people that ERF on one hand. From my playgroup, one, w/ ODS. Next playgroup w/ some from the first, two w/ YDS. From pre-school, a friend of a friend in fact, one more!

Kind of sad really, that the #s didn't increase as people got more experience...I only know one person that ERF past 2yo, again a friend of a friend.

THRILLED that things are changing and others, perhaps w/ 1st children more recently are keeping up to date on the car seat information...sad that they aren't here, but glad most people here follow our law...

tam

VanIsleMommy · Jan 9, 2012

update:

Thank you for taking the time to contact Sears.

In regard to your recent inquiry, we will direct your concerns to the appropriate department and will reply as soon as possible.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

If you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Thank you for choosing Sears.

Regards,

Mary

- evenflo embrace with Z handle is still on website. health canada has received my incident report so we'll see what happens.

snowbird25ca · Jan 9, 2012

I tried to post a review as well to the Z handle embrace but it was rejected because it referred to product safety so didn't qualify for their review guidelines. :ROTFLMAO:

Maybe it will have been forwarded to someone higher up though? Perhaps people will start talking to each other?

Did you forward the Health Canada memo to them?

Keeanh · Jan 9, 2012

I sent a follow-up e-mail about non-compliant seats online and in stores. This is what I received:

--------------
Thank you for taking the time to share your comments with us regarding 2012 car seats. It is through letters such as yours that we are able to keep in touch with our customers.

The current car seats the Sears sell are in no way unsafe and we can continue to sell them with confidence until later this year. Current child car seat requirements have provided a high level of safety for children for many years and these seats will continue to provide excellent protection throughout the life of the child seats.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

snowbird25ca · Jan 9, 2012

Keeanh said:
I sent a follow-up e-mail about non-compliant seats online and in stores. This is what I received:

--------------
Thank you for taking the time to share your comments with us regarding 2012 car seats. It is through letters such as yours that we are able to keep in touch with our customers.

The current car seats the Sears sell are in no way unsafe and we can continue to sell them with confidence until later this year. Current child car seat requirements have provided a high level of safety for children for many years and these seats will continue to provide excellent protection throughout the life of the child seats.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Have you forwarded the letter to them by any chance? Can anyone send me their email and I will email them the original letter? I can probably actually forward the one that came directly from the government itself.

ninejr · Jan 9, 2012

Is anyone just a little annoyed at this point, I may have to go and file a complaint with HC now, we weren't going to because we figured that it would get taken care of. DH says we are never buying seats at Sears again. It really does seem like wires got crossed somewhere with them, all of the other retailers seemed to get it, but they never clearanced, they haven't removed non compliant seats, and now they are saying they continue to be safe?? I realize they are still safe, but that message was for parents that already owned them, not for retailers to continue selling them.

Keeanh · Jan 9, 2012

snowbird25ca said:
Have you forwarded the letter to them by any chance? Can anyone send me their email and I will email them the original letter? I can probably actually forward the one that came directly from the government itself.

I did attach the pdf that you posted last week. They don't seem to have read it

.

snowbird25ca · Jan 9, 2012

Keeanh said:
I did attach the pdf that you posted last week. They don't seem to have read it .

I just forwarded them the original email from Health Canada that was sent June 22, 2011. It has the pdf attached to it.

This is what I said in my email: (subject of it says "Fwd: Requirements for Motor Vehicle Child Restraints Manufactured, Imported, Advertised and Sold in Canada - Effective January 1, 2012/ Exigences relatives aux ensembles de retenue pour enfants des véhicules automobiles qui sont fabriqués, import és " - maybe that will catch their attention?)

Hi,

I understand that there have been a number of people contact your website regarding the sale of seats which do not comply to the current CMVSS standards which all manufacturers had to comply with as of January 1st, 2012. Attached you will find a letter that came from Health Canada. This email was sent to all retailers and manufacturers of child restraints along with other interested parties on June 22, 2011. I have forwarded the original email so that you can verify that the source is legitimate.

As you can see from the letter, it is very clear that it is now illegal to sell any seat which doesn't comply to the updated standards. It is a violation of the Canada Consumer Product Safety Act which includes car seats now. I believe it is your responsibility as a retailer to ensure that the products you sell which are governed by the CCPSA meet the requirements as stated by the act.

Manufacturers have supplied retailers with lists which state how to tell whether stock is compliant or not.

If you contact Health Canada they can verify that it is illegal to sell non-compliant seats. You can probably expect contact from Health Canada anyways as I'm aware of at least one formal complaint that has been filed with them regarding the continued sale of seats which don't comply to 2012 standards, but perhaps being proactive at this point may work in your favour.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to check further in to this. While I will answer any questions you have as best I can, I do not work for the government and cannot speak for Health Canada, so you would be best advised to contact them with any questions you may have.

Regards,

I got an auto-response that my email was received and I can expect a response in about 3 days, we'll see what they say.

canadiangie · Jan 9, 2012

Keeanh said:
I sent a follow-up e-mail about non-compliant seats online and in stores. This is what I received:

--------------
Thank you for taking the time to share your comments with us regarding 2012 car seats. It is through letters such as yours that we are able to keep in touch with our customers.

The current car seats the Sears sell are in no way unsafe and we can continue to sell them with confidence until later this year. Current child car seat requirements have provided a high level of safety for children for many years and these seats will continue to provide excellent protection throughout the life of the child seats.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

holy smokes. boy did they miss the memo.

tam_shops · Jan 9, 2012

They still have 20# FF GN on their site, so I'm going with they're not getting the message, at all...And, an ETA.

One of the GN is on sale, but otherwise, they don't even appear to be clearing them out...I didn't check all the seats but the maestro had 22#FF.

tam

snowbird25ca · Jan 9, 2012

You know, when I started this thread I hadn't imagined that they were truly clueless on this. I figured the store manager was probably lying - managers have a habit of doing that when they have no clue of what they're talking about, so that doesn't surprise me, but I'm surprised corporate is defending the sale of these seats!

I sent the email to the standard one on the contact us page. Curious how long a response takes and if the seats disappear in the next few days.

I'm not surprised they're not gone yet given that they're claiming it's legal to sell them still, but maybe having the email forwarded that was the one health Canada sent back in June combined with being told that a complaint has already been filed with health Canada will make them wake up?

Tam - some seats listed as 20lb minimum are wrong in the description. But we won't see a change on the website as long as they're replying to emails and defending the legality of selling those seats...

Sent from my iPhone using Car-Seat.Org

barkles2008 · Jan 9, 2012

They aren't the only clueless ones. I emailed Dorel asking them to confirm a seat I saw on Walmart was a new compliant one and they replied this:

Dear Valued Consumer,

Thank you for contacting Dorel Juvenile Group Consumer Relations. We apologize for any delay in answering your email.

Thank you for your email. I am sorry for the delay. Any carseat currently sold new meets the 2012 requirements as per Transport Canada. Any seat sold prior to 2012 can still be used provided the instructions are followed. We hope this answers your questions. Please do not hesitate to contact us with any additional questions or concerns.

If you require additional assistance, you can also contact our Consumer Relations Department at 800-544-1108, Monday - Thursday from 7:00 AM - 6:00 PM EST and Fridays 7:00 - 4:30 PM.

Please reply with your original e-mail for better assistance.

Thank you,

Tara, CPST
Consumer Relations Specialist

Dorel Juvenile Group
P.O.Box 2609
Columbus, In 47202-2609
Phone: 1-800-544-1108
Fax: 1-800-207-8182
consumer@djgusa.com

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