Sears and non-compliant seats

2 in our class in HBB over 40#.
16 LBB (many not 40#)
1 5pt (my guy nto 40#)

Until Christmas, there was a 2nd girl in an expired 5pt that was too small for her. She's now in a HBB, she's taller than my guy, so I'd assume she's over 40# & 6yo. That'd be thanks to Nicole.

tam

But things sure have changed. I cringe to think my oldest was in a seat belt at 2.5...20 years ago. I didn't know any better and a police officer told me it was fine because she kept un buckling her carseat and climbing out.

tam_shops said:

As for the New and Better regulations keeping our kids safe, I agree w/ at least 90% of that. The part that gives me a different POV is that some people can't or won't afford a new seat but will buy one off CL. The fact that even poor children deserve to be safe and I now won't sell my seats on CL, even though they are safer than 85% of what I see on CL every time I look. But, the really big one that makes me say, *what ever* is the fact that my not 40# almost 6yo is the ONLY child in his class that is still following the law and in a 5pt harness. He is NOT the only child in that class I can guarantee is under 40#, legal limit. Further, in Pre-school, 3yo & 4yo, he was one of a few kids in 5pt, following the law...So, while I 100% agree this new law is great and I'm thrilled for it and would have liked it to be even stronger than 22# RF (like 2yo), *some* people will simply not follow it, no matter what it says, so why fill our landfill and/or prevent prevent those that can not afford anything better from buying a discounted seat. The new *Law* now says 22# for FF, so it does not matter that my old MA is out there floating around w/ 20#FF on it, some people will follow the law, some won't regardless of what the side of a 2009DOM seat says.

But, really it doesn't matter, the law is you can't sell them, so you can't sell them and *stores* especially should be dealt with b/c give an inch to them and then Graco could go back to making 20#FF GN b/c it was a popular seat and (was it you Trudy?) some people would buy that over Britax that is following the new rules...

tam

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The 22lbs is really only the tip of the iceberg really. There were actually more substantial changes - changes that matter when it comes to the performance of the seat. We're not talking labels or weight limits or instructions - we are talking changes in testing and changes in seat design that were needed to meet tougher regulations.

I'm confused over the GN comment if it was me - I think I probably like my Nautilus better than the Frontier, but I have one of each and neither of them meet the new standards.

The thing is this - people operate under the assumption that parents who buy used can't buy anything else, and this is wrong. People pay $150 and in some cases over $200 for USED seats - you can buy a perfectly safe new seat for less than that. Heck - you can buy a seat for $125 at walmart that will erf, ff harness until 65lbs and has 17" harness slots that will get most kids to booster age and size. I see people selling old 3in1's for that much money that are close to expiry. For that matter, I got $75 for my 3.5yr old EFTA when I sold it - I didn't expect to get what I was asking, but I did. Granted this seat was one that was obviously safe - but you can find new seats for similar price.

In fact, if I think back over the seats I've sold used, none of them have gone to families that were unable to afford a new seat. They bought a used seat because they a) trusted it was in the condition I stated it was in, and b) tried used before buying new for whatever their own reasons were.

I'm not against the sale of used car seats in general, but the actual percent of people who truly can't afford to buy a carseat out of the percent of people who buy used isn't that high. I have seen people who are low income and barely making ends meet buy a seat that cost $200 because it was what their child needed. I've been poor when I was younger. Very very poor - but I know that there are ways to stretch money when unexpected things come up. No it's not easy, but it comes down to priorities.

Carseats are less expensive than food, less expensive than car insurance and gas and registration. If you can afford to put gas in a car and pay insurance and registration, you can afford to save for a carseat.

That being said, I do wish that there was some sort of seat program in Canada that could assist low income families either through a subsidy or partial donation or something. I do understand how hard it can be - but I don't for a minute believe that hard equals impossible.

My honest two cents is more of the outrage about used seat sales isn't about the waste or the people who suddenly can't afford seats - it's the people who want to sell them being unable to sell them because in some cases we buy seats planning to be able to sell them a few years down the road and get something that suits us better. All the sudden that option is gone for a whole lot of us. Maybe I would feel differently if I'd been hanging on to seats and just hadn't gotten around to selling them, but I sold mine back when the sales on seats were just beginning so that I wouldn't be in that situation. (I think a few people around here did?)

Anyways... I know this is rather OT, but most of the kids who aren't in boosters or aren't in harnesses aren't there for financial reasons - they're there because the parents don't care enough to either a) know what the law is, or b) follow the law.

Misuse isn't something I would ever fault or criticize somebody for. Parents who have misuse are trying the vast majority of the time - they are doing the best they can with the resources they have. But parents who don't use anything at all aren't even trying. Non-use is a failure to try and lack of effort typically means lack of care. And no law in the world can make a parent who doesn't care about vehicle safety care. Harsh enough consequences might make them comply - but it won't make them care. "It's not going to happen to me" or "is just a cash ploy" or whatever other excuse people use is something that law can't fix.

Sorry this has gotten so long, I guess I've just had this conversation so many times in so many different places that all my thoughts got combined in to one place.

(ps - the law hasn't changed. The standards that car seat manufacturers have to meet has changed. Standards are federally regulated, law regarding use of seats is provincially regulated and nothing has changed on a provincial level.)

misty073 said:

But things sure have changed. I cringe to think my oldest was in a seat belt at 2.5...20 years ago. I didn't know any better and a police officer told me it was fine because she kept un buckling her carseat and climbing out.

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Things really were a lot different 20 years ago. I still remember when seatbelt laws came in to effect in AB. I also vividly remember a trip to BC back before AB had seatbelt laws when my brother was a baby and my mom commenting about how he had to be in his carseat all the time and I seem to remember complaints about there being a seatbelt law. There was an innocence to everything back then. My parents always have worn their seatbelts since I remember so I don't know why they were complaining about the BC law, but it's one of those things that has stuck with me. I still remember my brothers old carseat that sat up on these metal bars and had a plastic seat with a vinyl pad and an OHS. I remember wishing I could recline it while it was installed and when it wasn't installed I remember playing with the recline mechanism - a metal bar that you could push forward or back along the bottom support of the seat. Booster seats didn't exist, and the first car that had a shoulder belt in the backseat was my own first car - my parents car had ALR lap belts that I can remember trying to hold above my tummy so it didn't go tighter and tighter on long rides, lol.

So yep, things have really changed a lot. Vehicles, roads, carseats - pretty much everything.

snowbird25ca said:

...my parents car had ALR lap belts that I can remember trying to hold above my tummy so it didn't go tighter and tighter on long rides, lol.

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:ROTFLMAO:
Hahahahahaha!
I did the same thing, and had totally forgotten about it until you mentioned it. As toddlers, my brother & I each had our own Strolee seats. But by preschool we were out of them. My mom was the responsible parent who had a 4th lap belt installed in her Toyota Corona's back seat, rather than double-buckling for field trips like everyone else did. Yep, things were different...

Keeanh said:

:ROTFLMAO:
Hahahahahaha!
I did the same thing, and had totally forgotten about it until you mentioned it. As toddlers, my brother & I each had our own Strolee seats. But by preschool we were out of them. My mom was the responsible parent who had a 4th lap belt installed in her Toyota Corona's back seat, rather than double-buckling for field trips like everyone else did. Yep, things were different...

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My brother and I used to fight over the middle because it didn't have ALR belts but instead had a locking latchplate. Yep, funny to remember those things.

Trudy, i wasn't as much talking about the GN as saying that the laws had to be enforced or some companies would be able to sell more seats just b/c they were not following the rules and that the few #s makes a difference for some people. So, for example, last year the GN had a 20# FF limit, but the Frontier had a 25#FF limit, some people (I know) actually bought the GN to transfer their 18mth old in it, rather than waiting for the Frontier b/c they were in fact following the rules written on the seat. This raises the question, if the GN also had 25#FF on it, would they have ERF, or found another seat that let them do what they wanted. And, that was a really good point about how much money people are willing to spend on a 2nd hand seat. I got insane amounts of money on the seats I've sold...And, you're right, most of those people could certainly have *afforded* a new seat should the cost of their car be a reflection of that...Though, the buckets I sold/gave away, was a *very* different story, again should the car the person is driving become a reflection of that...At any rate, until there is a free car seat program (like in some places in the US), there will always be some people that truly can not afford a *proper* seat for their child. The reality is, this has and will not stop CL sales and you can't blame anyone on CL for selling their seat, there has been Zero public information about it, so it will continue. And, as far as the great changes go, I'm thrilled, however, if the 2010 RN and/or GN are safe enough for my child to sit in, then they should be safe enough for me to give away, otherwise, they shouldn't have been on the market in the first place and/or should be recalled to fix their lack of safety. And, that is not going to happen, nor would I expect it...It will expire soon enough and be out of the market, as it should be b/c you can't update your seat on an annual basis to have the latest/greatest as it becomes an absurd waist of plastic and money.

tam

snowbird25ca said:

I'm confused over the GN comment if it was me - I think I probably like my Nautilus better than the Frontier, but I have one of each and neither of them meet the new standards.

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I think that tam_shops might have been referring to an observation you once made that some people will seek out a seat they can forward face in sooner, so if those seats are no longer around, they will not have that option.

Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting the whole thing

Pixelated said:

I think that tam_shops might have been referring to an observation you once made that some people will seek out a seat they can forward face in sooner, so if those seats are no longer around, they will not have that option.

Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting the whole thing

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Thanks, that is exactly what I was saying, w/ the addition of the fact that it's not fair to the company that is following the rules and one more reason the rules need to be enforced, if that's what people do...

tam

Pixelated said:

I think that tam_shops might have been referring to an observation you once made that some people will seek out a seat they can forward face in sooner, so if those seats are no longer around, they will not have that option.

Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting the whole thing

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Thanks, I totally had said that quite awhile ago and had totally missed the line of thought when I read Tam's post.

I wish they would change the booster minimums. It should be more like 50lb min. Or at least 45. 40lbs allows too many kids out of the 5pt too soon.

Misty, while I agree w/ you in theory (about 45#), I'd rather see an age attached b/c it'd cause quite a problem for long torso thin/short kids. My almost 6yo isn't yet 40#, but would be on the top slot of our RN FF-he's so small he was still RF. In our GN he's on the top harness slot, was even w/ one down. That'd mean in the next inch or so, he's have to gain at least 6#. Given he's gained more like 3#/year for the last 3 years, I don't see that happening. So, then it becomes buy a $300 seat for 2 inches and a few #s and at his age, I'm not sure it's a reasonable expectation for everyone. While I personally don't object to it, might enjoy a law like that in fact b/c it'd end the debate in my mind about EH vs boostering a 6yo, it becomes $$$ for a lot of people and I'd want to see a free car seat program before that happened.

tam

misty073 said:

I wish they would change the booster minimums. It should be more like 50lb min. Or at least 45. 40lbs allows too many kids out of the 5pt too soon.

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I don't. My 5yr old isn't 40lbs. He won't be 45lbs until he's probably 7yrs old. And he'll be in a booster before then. I don't know my 7.5yr old's exact weight, but I'm guessing she's maybe 55lbs now. She was hovering around 50lbs a year ago.

Take a heavy kid and sure 50lbs is reasonable - take a small kid and it's unreasonable and IMO impractical and asking too much to expect a parent to harness them to 45 or 50lbs.

Just my honest 2 cents as a parent of lightweight and tall kids. For that matter, I don't think there will even be a seat that would fit ds in harness by the time he hits 50lbs - he's about to move on to the 3rd highest harness height in the Frontier XT already and isn't yet 40lbs...

Yeah, I cannot agree about the booster either. My oldest is 6.5 lbs and 41lbs!! My 4 yr old (tomorrow) JUST hit 30lbs. At the rate my kids grow, they will be 8+ before they ever hit 45-50lbs.

I think people that are going to use the seats improperly would no matter what the limits.

Then why not do the same as they do for getting out of a booster? Have one or the other that needs to be met. Like 45lbs or a certain height/or age. My daughter is just about 50lbs and I have just moved her to a booster which I'm still finding a little scary. But she isn't small, I hate seeing 3 and 4 year olds in boosters (low back at that) because they fit and it's easier.

I'd live with 40# and 4yo. I'd like to see 40# and 5-6yo.

tam

Clearly I am not an expert and you guys know alot about child seats and safety . 40lbs just seems so fragile lol

The others know far more than I do and can probably explain it better, simply said it's not just about weight, it's about age and size as well. A 40# 3yo would have very fragile bones, but a 40# 6yo would have stronger bones. Especially parts of the spine b/c it fuses as the children age.

A booster is also about maturity, which is why I think an age should be attached. A 3yo is not mature enough even if s/he is #40 and it's legal...

tam

What is the new regulation #?

The new FF minimum for carseat manufacturers to put on their car seats is 22lbs. The motor vehicle laws, which dictate how we as consumers use the seats in our vehicles, haven't changed.