Disturbing RF crashtest videos

khanbulgarski

New member
Do you have any links to that data? I would like to read it if in English ;).

So are you discussing this in the context that you believe all rf seats should be braced or european only.

auto-correct on the loose..

Well, my personal opinion would be that all RF seats should be in contact with dash/seat or in a very close proximity at least- 1/3 of an inch for example. Physics is the same in Europe and in the US and as you saw from this article true run down time comes only with a rigid seat that does not move. That is exactly why rigid Isofix is safer in FF and when it comes to RF that difference dissapears because of the braced seats. But I am not an engineer- I am just expressing my opinion and my beliefs.
 
ADS

Baylor

New member
khanbulgarski said:
Well, my personal opinion would be that all RF seats should be in contact with dash/seat or in a very close proximity at least- 1/3 of an inch for example. Physics is the same in Europe and in the US and as you saw from this article true run down time comes only with a rigid seat that does not move. That is exactly why rigid Isofix is safer in FF and when it comes to RF that difference dissapears because of the braced seats. But I am not an engineer- I am just expressing my opinion and my beliefs.

But you are not stating just opinion. You are calling it SAFEST.

The opinion thing I get. Really. But i think you need to be careful in how you word it.

auto-correct on the loose..
 

khanbulgarski

New member
Your so-called expert seems to be neglecting the fact that the vehicle designers included seat belt stretch when they designed the vehicle. Seat belts are supposed to stretch, as it does increase ride down time. By bracing against a rigid structure such as the dash, you are all but eliminating that component of the vehicle's designed safety system.

Seat belts are supposed to stretch.

Yes they are- because they are the primary safety system of an adult passenger. The internal harness of the child seat also should stretch but not the belts that are holding the seat. Of course the belted seats FF or RF stretch which is not the best thing although safety is still barely within the limits of the standard in the case of FF, and that is why rigid Isofix is superior to belted installation.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
Here is my understanding, and I may be wrong, so someone feel free to correct me.

I was taught that in a crash, there are three impacts: 1) The car hitting something, 2) The occupant hitting something (seatbelt/harness included), 3) Stuff inside the person hitting something (internal organs)

You want ride-down time to reduce the impacts. If a body were to stop too suddenly, the stuff inside (or attached to) the body keeps moving. Internal organs, head whipping forward, etc.

I have heard it likened to jumping off a bridge. Do you want to do that with a bungee cord that stretches and gradually reduces your movement, or a rope that jerks you to a sudden stop?

Now, clearly too much movement is bad, so I'm not sure where that line is (you want to make sure the bungee cord stops you before you hit the concrete), but I am not convinced that having no movement in a seat is a good thing, either.

It's also entirely possible that in a crash, a braced seat and a non-braced seat will perform differently and yet still sufficiently.
 

Pixels

New member
Yes they are- because they are the primary safety system of an adult passenger. The internal harness of the child seat also should stretch but not the belts that are holding the seat. Of course the belted seats FF or RF stretch which is not the best thing although safety is still barely within the limits of the standard in the case of FF, and that is why rigid Isofix is superior to belted installation.

If the stretch of the install belt was sufficient for the child, then they would design the internal harness not to stretch. The additional stretch is necessary and desirable. You are also ignoring that ISOFIX, in many cases, includes designed give (crumple zone) to replicate the stretch of webbing.
 

khanbulgarski

New member
Your expert mentions that many/most forward facing seats exceed the 550 mm standard limit for forward motion. If this is true, how are these seats legal? I know that in the US and Canada, any seat that is found to not comply with the standard would be recalled.


Your expert also touts the tighter attachment of rigid ISOFIX. Again, he is neglecting that many seat manufacturers have designed a crumple zone of sorts into their rigid ISOFIX, because some give is desirable. The stretch of the webbing that was lost is replaced by a crumple zone. If the best performance was to be had by coupling the dummy to the chassis as tightly as possible, why would they intentionally partially de-couple them?

The expert says that it comes close to the 550 mm limit. Not that is exceeds it. Also I have got a letter from Britax sent to all retailers in Europe that they have concluded that when it comes to FF the safest is rigid Isofix + support leg/top tether. The role of the support leg/ tether is to prevent rotation, which can be translated as flexing as well. The only thing I know of that comes as an advanced form of rigid Isofix in Europe is a Pivot link system which is different from what I think you mean. But hey- good points also and overall I am enjoying this discussion, although I've been pretty much on the defence here. I cannot argue about US latch, belts, plastic etc. I am just saying what we in Europe consider to be safest. And although I have got no proof of that an engineer from Britax in Ulm, Germany also told me that rigid Isofix is superior to a belted installation. I can probably look up this letter which I mentioned from Britax.
 

Pixels

New member
"The answer is both easy and a little complicated.... The basic goal for child
restraints is to restrain, to keep the child from moving in the vehicle,
while the vehicle structure itself crumples and absorbs energy, retarding
the movement of the passengers in a way which the automotive engineers
design to yield the best chances of reducing injury. You tie the passengers
as tightly to the car chassis as you can, and you let the chassis be the
primary means of protecting the occupants.

This is one of the ways rearward facing systems outperform forward facing
systems, entirely ignoring the issue of head and neck loads. The forward
facing system, typically anchored to seat belts, moves forward in a crash as
the seat belts extend, the plastic in the seat itself stretches, the child
stretches the internal child harness in the seat and the vehicle seat
cushion collapses under the load of the seat. The outcome is that the child
moves forward, close or beyond the 550 mm extension that is allowed in the
standard. What this means is that during perhaps a third of the crash the
child cruises, motion unchecked, forward in space, and the retardation ends
up taking place in a shorter period of time, resulting in a higher load on
the child during the 40 ms or so that remain.

He did say that it exceeds the limit.
 

khanbulgarski

New member
If the stretch of the install belt was sufficient for the child, then they would design the internal harness not to stretch. The additional stretch is necessary and desirable. You are also ignoring that ISOFIX, in many cases, includes designed give (crumple zone) to replicate the stretch of webbing.

Yes, I know your Latch is simply Isofix anchors attached to a belt which stretches. Maybe it is part a US logic or something, but European Isofix does not stretch. And as LISmama810 mentioned a bungee rope- yes it is a good example but you are imagining it from the wrong perspective. You see the rope as the system holding the seat in place, but this rope actually is the internal harness that must stretch in order to slow down gradually the body of the child.
 

khanbulgarski

New member
But you are not stating just opinion. You are calling it SAFEST.

The opinion thing I get. Really. But i think you need to be careful in how you word it.

auto-correct on the loose..

In my opinion I was the only one to have posted the words of an actual person that is an expert in the field with decades of experience. I am not making any of the things I said up. I have been learning them from other sources- credible sources!
 

khanbulgarski

New member
http://www.carseat.se/isofix-or-seat-belt-whats-safest/

Quote: Lets start with Isofix while forward facing. If your child is forward facing I hope he/she is at least 4+ years old….:)) Isofix is safer to use forward facing and can also be used much longer than rear facing. Reason for the increased safety is because car seat is attached to body of the car. In a frontal collision, the seat is not moving forward and the weight of the car seat is not adding onto your child’s weight.....Much research has been done to determine if Isofix or seat belts are safer. In theory, a car seat which move less in a collision also offer better safety. A child is then stopped earlier in the collision which is an advantage. End of quote
 

Baylor

New member
khanbulgarski said:
http://www.carseat.se/isofix-or-seat-belt-whats-safest/

Quote: Lets start with Isofix while forward facing. If your child is forward facing I hope he/she is at least 4+ years old….:)) Isofix is safer to use forward facing and can also be used much longer than rear facing. Reason for the increased safety is because car seat is attached to body of the car. In a frontal collision, the seat is not moving forward and the weight of the car seat is not adding onto your child’s weight. A popular Isofix forward facing seat in Europe would be the Britax Kid Fix, 15 -36 kg. (33-80 lbs). More in depth talk about Isofix and forward facing in coming posts.

The thing is that our LATCH has weight limits. We need to be mindful of make of vehicle and seat together. A good seat belt install is just as safe from what I understand.

auto-correct on the loose..
 

Brianna

New member
It looks like a good amount of the "research" cited on that page is that ISOFIX means that the seat is more likely to be installed correctly. The vast majority of users on the site can install car seats correctly with a seat belt. I've seen LATCH just as misused at a seat belt, so simply saying it's more likely to be used correctly doesn't hold any value IMHO.
 

equilibrium

New member
I always envision the rear-facing ride down as if you were holding a balloon filled with water. It could bounce up and down holding the water inside until it came to a full stop. Like the bungee example.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Well, my personal opinion would be that all RF seats should be in contact with dash/seat or in a very close proximity at least- 1/3 of an inch for example. Physics is the same in Europe and in the US and as you saw from this article true run down time comes only with a rigid seat that does not move. That is exactly why rigid Isofix is safer in FF and when it comes to RF that difference dissapears because of the braced seats. But I am not an engineer- I am just expressing my opinion and my beliefs.

I would actually directly argue with you about that 1/3 of an inch in front of a dash. While a small amount of space, it is still enough space for a seat to rotate a little, resulting in the child impacting the shell when the shell of the seat impacts the hard dashboard.

As I understand it, advanced airbag systems are becoming more common place in Europe as well, and switches are becoming less common.

Yes, I know your Latch is simply Isofix anchors attached to a belt which stretches. Maybe it is part a US logic or something, but European Isofix does not stretch. And as LISmama810 mentioned a bungee rope- yes it is a good example but you are imagining it from the wrong perspective. You see the rope as the system holding the seat in place, but this rope actually is the internal harness that must stretch in order to slow down gradually the body of the child.

But at what point is the internal harness stretching? In a North American seat, the shell is rotating downwards and the carseat is doing the bulk of the hard work during that time. The harness of a rf'ing seat isn't going to have loading on it until the seat starts to rebound - which is involving much less force by the time it happens.

A number of years ago, some child restraint manufacturers didn't reinforce all harness slots for use with a ff'ing child. In fact, they often only reinforced the very top slots to accomodate the forces that a ff'ing child placed on the harness system. Harnesses ripped through the shells of seats in collisions when parents failed to move the straps to the reinforced slots - yet those same seats didn't fail rf'ing because the force just isn't there.

You are correct that the vehicle body is the primary point of protection for the occupants of the vehicle. I know many people on this site, myself included, have shopped for vehicles and had very specific crash test requirements and minimum safety features that we've been willing to consider when purchasing a vehicle. We understand the important role that the vehicle plays in a collision. But the carseat serves multiple purposes - it spreads the force over more parts of the body, it keeps the child in the protected passenger space, and it allows the child a more gradual stop while the vehicle itself is absorbing energy.

Britax has purposefully put features in to it's seats in North America which actually allow the child to have increased movement in higher speed collisions. Likewise, Diono has a device called the safestop that is for ff'ing children under 40lbs when the seat is top tethered. Manufacturers recognize that too abrupt a stop doesn't benefit the child and that a more gradual stop means that they don't have as much force applied to their body. This doesn't mean that excessive movement is a good thing. Seats have standards that they have to meet in terms of how much forward movement they are allowed to have, or in the case of rf'ing seats, how much downward rotation they are allowed to have.

Swedish seats are ultimately designed a lot differently from North American seats. However, I can tell you that if I was installing a rf'ing seat in a front seat with a disabled airbag - as you would in a pick-up truck without a back seat, I would rather have it fully against the front dash so that the downward movement was prevented in the first place because preventing the movement would be more preferable than the seat impacting the dash early on in the collision sequence.

Just my thoughts.
 

Baylor

New member
snowbird25ca said:
I would actually directly argue with you about that 1/3 of an inch in front of a dash. While a small amount of space, it is still enough space for a seat to rotate a little, resulting in the child impacting the shell when the shell of the seat impacts the hard dashboard.

As I understand it, advanced airbag systems are becoming more common place in Europe as well, and switches are becoming less common.

But at what point is the internal harness stretching? In a North American seat, the shell is rotating downwards and the carseat is doing the bulk of the hard work during that time. The harness of a rf'ing seat isn't going to have loading on it until the seat starts to rebound - which is involving much less force by the time it happens.

A number of years ago, some child restraint manufacturers didn't reinforce all harness slots for use with a ff'ing child. In fact, they often only reinforced the very top slots to accomodate the forces that a ff'ing child placed on the harness system. Harnesses ripped through the shells of seats in collisions when parents failed to move the straps to the reinforced slots - yet those same seats didn't fail rf'ing because the force just isn't there.

You are correct that the vehicle body is the primary point of protection for the occupants of the vehicle. I know many people on this site, myself included, have shopped for vehicles and had very specific crash test requirements and minimum safety features that we've been willing to consider when purchasing a vehicle. We understand the important role that the vehicle plays in a collision. But the carseat serves multiple purposes - it spreads the force over more parts of the body, it keeps the child in the protected passenger space, and it allows the child a more gradual stop while the vehicle itself is absorbing energy.

Britax has purposefully put features in to it's seats in North America which actually allow the child to have increased movement in higher speed collisions. Likewise, Diono has a device called the safestop that is for ff'ing children under 40lbs when the seat is top tethered. Manufacturers recognize that too abrupt a stop doesn't benefit the child and that a more gradual stop means that they don't have as much force applied to their body. This doesn't mean that excessive movement is a good thing. Seats have standards that they have to meet in terms of how much forward movement they are allowed to have, or in the case of rf'ing seats, how much downward rotation they are allowed to have.

Swedish seats are ultimately designed a lot differently from North American seats. However, I can tell you that if I was installing a rf'ing seat in a front seat with a disabled airbag - as you would in a pick-up truck without a back seat, I would rather have it fully against the front dash so that the downward movement was prevented in the first place because preventing the movement would be more preferable than the seat impacting the dash early on in the collision sequence.

Just my thoughts.

Thank you for explaining those points so well. You answered questions for me that I was not sure how to ask.
:)

auto-correct on the loose..
 

khanbulgarski

New member
But at what point is the internal harness stretching? .


Good points you made. I suppose your question was about RF. The harness stretches since unless the seat is 90 degrees upright there is always some recline. The harness then stretchess and holds the child's movement upwards and the EPS foam on the seat's back takes the excess energy away. If the seat not only bends, because those seats not only bended but they also moved backward too much as we saw in those videos the neck and the spine won't be in an ideal vertical straight line- the movement back would mean also greater loads on the internal organs because of the speed at which they move and less time for stopping because of that movement backward=more energy at shorter time span. If the seat is braced it will move less which means it will have less energy, the neck and the spine would be aligned . Of course even the dash would move 1-2 centimeters and if the seat is braced against the front seat the movement would be more and it should be ok even if it is slightly less safe. Ask yourselves the question why the more upright the child in the seat means more safety- FF or RF, you all know that. It is the same here. See some of the reclines you get in those videos. This recline would cause the child to move upward and be shot like a rocket against the internal harness which can cause injuries and an unnecessary stress on the harness = bigger chance for malfunction and failure.

If you are correct then please tell me if the seats without support legs that are meant to be braced- are they less safe than those with support legs? I don't think so. Plus these were probably test speeds as the car seat they used looks like ECE standard and the speed there should be no more than 30-40 mph even if it is the plus test. I can only wonder what would have happened in greater speeds. From all the things I cited- and I say it again- I was the only one citing actual expert opinions to back up my argument the only conclusion is that bracing is SAFER, maybe not by much but definately so. Please tell me if it is not why are the Swedes always bracing their seats- from what I remember they were the ones that invented RF, it doesn't come from the US- and they have the most experienced professionals.

And also I accept your opinion about the 1/3 of the inch distance- I was just being liberal by suggesting it. If there is a distance between the child seat and the dash/seat it will collide with them transfering the energy to the child. If it is braced there is little risk the seat will move chaotically and collide with object inside the vehicle. As I said by the seat being rigid inside the car it does not mean the child will be rigid. The harness, the ESP foam and the small movement of the dash/seat will ride the child down in a controlled manner.
 
Last edited:

misty073

New member
Definatly not an expert here :). But the first thing I thought was no locking clip used? Or failed. I thought I saw one in the last video?
 

ilo

New member
I personally am not worried about bracing or not. Cars in Europe are small so in most cases the seat is very close to the front seat when used at the back. I have not seen any real life studies done where they would imply that RF seat could have performed better. Kids seem to be so safe RF that deaths happen only in non-survivable crashes and with issues like something perforated in the car where the child is seated.

Anyway after reading this discussion I'm not convinced that bracing is safer. We obviously do not know. Both human body and the forces in an accident are complicated. One thing might be great for one part of the body in a certain kind of accident but a completely opposite feature would be needed to maximize the safety of some other organs. Now I'm just speculating and guessing of course but for example bracing and keeping the body and seat as rigid as possible might be best for neckloads but a ride down time might be needed for the internal organs so they won't hit the back of the abdominal cavity.

Another thing that was mentioned was LATCH/ISOFIX and safety. I also saw boosters mentioned in a post. It seems to be out in the air if the LATCH/ISOFIX is safer or not in booster. In those Canadian tests few years back I remember that non-latched booster performed better than latched when the child was slouching. How many parents outside this forum booster train their kids? I would guess it would be close to none so that kind of misuse could be very common. Then in those ADAC tests sometimes a booster performs better with ISOFIX but surprisingly other times not. This year Kid Plus SICT and Kidfix SICT both got the same grade. The seats seem to be very similar boosters but Kidfix has ISOFIX. Actually when you read the tests they both get excellent grade with side impacts but the non isofix booster performs better with forward impact. Here are the links, you could use google translator to read them.

At least this made me was comfortable getting the cheaper non ISOFIX version of this Britax booster LOL.

non isofix version
http://www.autoliitto.fi/testit_ja_ajoneuvot/lasten_turvaistuimet/romer-kid-plus-sict-2011/


isofix version
http://www.autoliitto.fi/testit_ja_ajoneuvot/lasten_turvaistuimet/romer-kidfix-sict-2011/
 

An Aurora

Senior Community Member
Crash tests like these are always misleading, IMO, as people tend to forget that real vehicles are not like test sleds--they have front seats. Car seats aren't going to experience that full range of motion even if they aren't braced--the over-rotation is going to be slowed or stopped by the front vehicle seats whenever it impacts them.

I too found nothing remotely disturbing until the last video, which appears to me a misuse test.
 

lenats31

New member
Bend a little, yes! But not going horizontal. The more upright the seat the better. The foam and the harness will take away the energy.

US seat are much more likely to go horizontal and even quicker than here because they don´t have footprops to support the seats and reduce impact forces on the frontseat among others. Furthermore your seats MUST be installed free standing.
 

Car-Seat.Org Facebook Group

Forum statistics

Threads
219,657
Messages
2,196,902
Members
13,531
Latest member
jillianrose109

You must read your carseat and vehicle owner’s manual and understand any relevant state laws. These are the rules you must follow to restrain your children safely. All opinions at Car-Seat.Org are those of the individual author for informational purposes only, and do not necessarily reflect any policy or position of Carseat Media LLC. Car-Seat.Org makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. If you are unsure about information provided to you, please visit a local certified technician. Before posting or using our website you must read and agree to our TERMS.

Graco is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Britax is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Nuna Baby is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org!

Please  Support Car-Seat.Org  with your purchases of infant, convertible, combination and boosters seats from our premier sponsors above.
Shop travel systems, strollers and baby gear from Britax, Chicco, Clek, Combi, Evenflo, First Years, Graco, Maxi-Cosi, Nuna, Safety 1st, Diono & more! ©2001-2022 Carseat Media LLC

Top