Is the vehicle more important than the seat?

Divinormus

New member
I drive a 2003 Toyota Camry XLE and for its time it received pretty good crash test ratings. But I notice that there have been many new safety technologies implemented in cars coming out these days which make those cars much safer.

So I suppose my question is, besides a great carseat and safe, defensive driving techniques. Is the car typically more important for the safety of the child more than the carseat?

I wonder, as I see so many folks with vehicles that receive low crash ratings, but will buy an expensive car seat, and I wonder if that would be better put towards a newer, safer vehicle. Although I suppose a $300 investment is a tad cheaper than a $20,000+ one.

I just wonder if all my research towards getting the best carseat is wasted if I don't have a vehicle with all the latest safety innovations (Side curtain airbags, rear airbags, traction control, etc..etc..).
 
ADS

Lemonade

New member
My understanding is that side airbag would help the driver and adult passengers but would not contact, or contact much, with the car seats or the children in them. So having them would not matter with children in seats.

The car is certainly important. But I do believe the car seat is just as important. A child can be incorrectly/inadequately restrained and their little body tossed around the interior of a super-safe new car and the car will do them no good. I'm big on head wings. I know the jury is still out statistically. But it makes sense that they would protect the spine and head better in some crashes, and would also provide better protection from debris, like broken glass, entering the area where the child is seated. And mass absorbs energy so just like bigger cars absorb more crash forces than smaller cars, it makes sense that a larger, bulkier seat would absorb more energy, and transfer less energy to the child, than a lighter seat.

So I think both are important. You (general 'you') buy the best, supposedly safest, car you can afford. And the best seat you can afford - and best obviously being one that works well with your vehicle and your child fits well. And a rear facing seat in a smaller, older car is probably better than a forward facing seat in a new, larger, 'safer' vehicle also. Seems it's all about energy management and distribution of crash forces.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
This is a matter of opinions, and as far as opinions go, we all have them.

I do think the choice of vehicle is more important that the choice of carseat. I also think that keeping the vehicle properly maintained (tires, brakes, etc.) is crucial. But as you noted, people can more easily buy a $300 carseat than a $30K vehicle. And for some people, financial stability counts even more than crash test ratings: they won't take on debt to buy a different vehicle.

In the end, we're all here on carseat.org because we want to do the best we can with what we have.
 

luckyclov

New member
we want to do the best we can with what we have.
Yeah, that.

If a new(er) vehicle with all that "latest technologies" isn't in the plans/budget, then make sure the vehicle you do have is as safe as it can possibly be: adequate tires and brakes (most important, IMO), healthy seatbelt system(s), properly maintained overall, and driven by an un-distracted, defensive driver.

Sometimes the $300 child seat doesn't install in your vehicle properly...or fit your child the way it should, which would make it far less safe then the properly installed/fitted $100 child seat. So, whatever child seat you choose to go with, just make sure it fits your vehicle/installs properly (RFing, if at all possible), fits your child, and is used properly every single ride.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
I know I personally feel comfortable using a less-safety-feature-filled seat in a newer car with better safety features (sort of the converse of your posited question).....like, I feel pretty strongly about highback boosters as long as possible (till 6th grade :cool:) in our van with poor head restraint ratings and no curtain airbags, but was fine with no-backs in our SUV with good head restraints and side airbags.
To echo carseatcoach, yeah, we do the best we can with what we have. Statistics are interesting, too... a large proportion of kids killed in crashes are with parents who are DUI... just driving sober and off the phone gives you a substantial leg up in not getting in a crash in the first place. So there's a lot that weighs into the decision to buy a new car.
 

Jessica61624

New member
I feel my kids are perfectly safe in my older (2000) car. They're properly restrained and installed correctly. They happen to be in $300 seats due to their size. My son doesnt fit rear facing in any of the cheaper seats anymore. If I had a brand new car I wouldn't change what they sat in. All seats pass the same testing so the price tag of a seat doesn't mean its any safer. It just means I can keep my 22 month rear facing longer which is of course safer.
 

jeminijad

New member
In a severe collision, I believe the vehicle is more important than the seat.

If one car is flattened in a rollover, and another maintains the integrity of the passenger cabin- well, car seats are nice, but they aren't magic. Likewise with airbags- if the side of the car is impacted, and is pushed inward, an airbag in between that and a passenger (in a car seat or not) is a positive thing.

Advanced braking systems, weather appropriate tires, well designed headlights/windshield wipers etc all lessen the likelihood that an accident will occur in the first place.

But like all risk/benefit assessments, the severe collision that will probably never happen has to be balanced against the finances that are happening every day.
 

jeminijad

New member
All seats pass the same testing so the price tag of a seat doesn't mean its any safer.

If you are an A student, and I'm a C student, and we both take a Pass/Fail exam- we may both pass. It doesn't follow that we are equal.

Meeting a minimum standard does not imply equivalency. We Don't Know =/= Its All The Same.
 

gigi

New member
jeminijad said:
If you are an A student, and I'm a C student, and we both take a Pass/Fail exam- we may both pass. It doesn't follow that we are equal.

Meeting a minimum standard does not imply equivalency. We Don't Know =/= Its All The Same.

Thank you for posting this...this misunderstanding flies around c-s.org and it drives me nuts. Lack of public info does not mean there is no info, lol, just that we can only guess at which performs better :)
 

bubbaray

New member
Thank you for posting this...this misunderstanding flies around c-s.org and it drives me nuts.

Could you please post references to empirical studies showing that this is "misunderstanding"? Because this "misunderstanding" is part of our tech training and knowledge.
 

Pixels

New member
If you are an A student, and I'm a C student, and we both take a Pass/Fail exam- we may both pass. It doesn't follow that we are equal.

Meeting a minimum standard does not imply equivalency. We Don't Know =/= Its All The Same.

True. And price tag is no indicator of how "safe" a seat is, with caveats. Sometimes more expensive seats have higher limits, and if the parent takes advantage of those higher limits then the child will be better protected, but the vast majority of parents graduate their child at the minimums so it doesn't really matter. Sometimes more expensive seats have ease of use features, which makes it easier for the parent to use the seat properly, making the easier seat a safer seat for that parent/child.

That said, any seat is safe if properly used, and then price tag is no indicator of safer or less safe. I have seen crash testing results, with some wonderful results from cheap seats and some not so wonderful results (downright scary, IMO) from very expensive seats. And of course there are expensive seats with great results, and less expensive seats with less than stellar results.

Back to the original question, about vehicle vs seat: The vehicle is the first, most important line of defense. Just staying within the vehicle body cuts your chances of death by 75%. Said another way, a person who is ejected is four times more likely to be killed. Carseats only work because they couple the child's mass to that of the vehicle. Vehicle = big thing = takes a lot longer (relatively speaking) to come to a stop. Child = small thing = very rapid stop. The faster the stop, the more forces the body takes.

But as others have pointed out, it's not so easy to upgrade vehicles as it is to upgrade seats.

In my 2002 Civic, with good crash test results, I was willing to turn my 4yo forward facing in a Radian with tether and SafeStop in order to fit three kids across. It's both vehicle and seat that made me comfortable with that, as I believe the SafeStop will offset some of the risk of forward facing in the safe vehicle. In DH's 1999 Grand Am, with poor crash test results, no tether anchor and not retrofittable, forward facing is not an option with which DH and I are comfortable at this point.

It turns out that three across is either impossible or so difficult as to be impracticable, so we got a van. Yet, we're selling my Civic and keeping DH's Grand Am for now, due to many other factors. Kids still can and will ride in DH's car, but I'll either figure out three across with all rear facing, or no more than two kids will ride with him at a time.
 

gigi

New member
bubbaray said:
Could you please post references to empirical studies showing that this is "misunderstanding"? Because this "misunderstanding" is part of our tech training and knowledge.

Just look at the head excursion #s...some do better, some do worse but all pass. The standards are MINIMUMS, that doesn't mean some seats don't test better than others. Since the data isn't public we don't know if a Tribute is safer than a Radian or vice versa, we only know that both met federal safety mimimums and are both judged to be safe...one may well be "safer", but we don't know which. I'm not saying any properly used seats are unsafe, I'm saying it is mathmatically incorrect to say they are equally safe because we don't know that.

Also, the regulations don't even address side impacts and I don't believe every seat would test EXACTLY the same. That is highly unlikely.
 

Pixels

New member
Could you please post references to empirical studies showing that this is "misunderstanding"? Because this "misunderstanding" is part of our tech training and knowledge.

No, it's not. We are not taught that all seats are equally safe. We are taught that all seats, properly used, are safe. There is a difference between saying, "they are all safe," and saying, "no seat is safer than another." What is accurate is to say, "they are all safe," and, "we have no way of knowing if one seat may be safer than another."

And when trying to judge which seat is safeR or safeST, there's too many variables to sort through. Frontal impact? Rear? Side? Rollover? Single impact or multiple? Age, weight, height of child? Vehicle? Seat installation direction? Seat installation method? Maybe seat A does very well in a single frontal impact or in a side impact, but not so well in multiple impacts or in a rear impact. Maybe seat B does very well in multiple impacts or a rear impact, but not so well in a single frontal or side impact. Which seat is safer? You can't really say.
 

Chely7425

New member
I think that in normal day to day use/minor accidents the seats and their use are most likely more important. In a severe accident (like getting rear ended by a semi... :p) I think the vehicle is MORE important though the seats are obviously still important as well.
 

emtb79

New member
I think that in normal day to day use/minor accidents the seats and their use are most likely more important. In a severe accident (like getting rear ended by a semi... :p) I think the vehicle is MORE important though the seats are obviously still important as well.

Exactly what I think.
 

murphydog77

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Carseats are supposed to restrain kids, just like seatbelts are supposed to restrain adults. So, if you follow that line of thinking, the vehicle is more important because it provides crumple zones that allow greater ride down for all passengers (including carseat riders). The carseat also allows greater ride down time on top of what the vehicle provides.

I think they're impossibly intertwined, but vehicle safety comes out on top for me. I've upgraded vehicles to get more safety features such as side airbags.
 
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jjordan

Moderator
This isn't a direct answer to your question, but a thought along those lines.

CPST's are taught to tell caregivers that the safest seat is the one that fits your car, fits your child, fits your budget, and that you can use correctly every time. This is largely because there are no comparative tests that have determined which seats are safer (although, as others have mentioned, doubtless some are safer than others). However, for cars, they are tested and assigned a safety level. So, while we're telling parents that the $40 car seat is a better choice for them than the $300 car seat, just because the first fits their budget, we're also saying, "but the $30,000 car is safer than the $2000 car." So... we're validating budget-conscious seat choices, while affirming that budget-conscious car choices are often compromising safety. Not that it's bad, but it's just... interesting, I guess.

All cars are so much safer now than they were 30 years ago, that I wonder how much safer the "safer ones are these days, kwim? I think most cars today are "safe," and just like with car seats, proper use is far more important than the actual safety ratings.

That being said, as we're thinking ahead to buying a new-to-us car in the next few months/year, we are considering the safety ratings in our search.
 

mimieliza

New member
Yes, I think the car matters waaayyyy more as long as the seat is installed correctly.

My kids ride in Radians in a 1999 Honda Odyssey. I believe they would be much safer in Sceneras in a 2011 Honda Odyssey with all the latest greatest safety features.

However, I can afford Radians. I can't afford a new van. So it is what it is.

Anyway, a properly maintained and carefully driven 12 year old Honda is still very, very safe (even though it lacks things like side curtain air bags, advanced air bags, LATCH, etc.), much like a correctly installed Cosco Scenera is still very, very safe (even though it lacks things like RFing tether, EPS foam, steel-reinforced frame, etc.).
 

Pixels

New member
This isn't a direct answer to your question, but a thought along those lines.

CPST's are taught to tell caregivers that the safest seat is the one that fits your car, fits your child, fits your budget, and that you can use correctly every time.

No, we aren't. We are taught to tell caregivers that the safest seat is the one that fits your car, fits your child, and is used correctly every time. Budget is not in the equation at all, I think because for some people there is no budget.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
Pixels said:
No, it's not. We are not taught that all seats are equally safe. We are taught that all seats, properly used, are safe. There is a difference between saying, "they are all safe," and saying, "no seat is safer than another." What is accurate is to say, "they are all safe," and, "we have no way of knowing if one seat may be safer than another."

And when trying to judge which seat is safeR or safeST, there's too many variables to sort through. Frontal impact? Rear? Side? Rollover? Single impact or multiple? Age, weight, height of child? Vehicle? Seat installation direction? Seat installation method? Maybe seat A does very well in a single frontal impact or in a side impact, but not so well in multiple impacts or in a rear impact. Maybe seat B does very well in multiple impacts or a rear impact, but not so well in a single frontal or side impact. Which seat is safer? You can't really say.

Yes, that exactly.

If you want to use the "taking a test" analogy, maybe you get an A on the test and I got a C. That doesn't mean you're smarter than me. It means we got different (passing) grades, and you passed "more." But what if I get an A on another test, and you get a C? Or what if you get an A on the written test, but I do better on the hands-on skill test that accompanies it?

The point is that the test is limited. It tests for one kind of crash in one kind of "vehicle." Seat contours, seatbelt geometry, type of crash, exact size and shape of child, etc., might all affect real-life scenarios.

So while one seat MAY be safer than another, we just don't know, and really can't speculate.
 

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