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  1. #21
    CPS Technician tam_shops's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    I find the whole thing very confusing too because I thought I was doing the right thing to keep my not quite 40 pound 5 yo harnessed, but then I read things here that suggest some people think boosters are safer. For us, she's completely happy being harnessed and feels really good about being able to buckle herself in (something I hear can be harder with a booster). Something I've wondered about myself is how one explains the booster rules without that huge responsibility causing the child excessive worry and stress.
    According to the research (not presented) by Transport Canada, you ARE doing the right thing. It is the law here to booster until 40#. There is no age, just weight. And, if I am reading the information leading up to the 2012 Canadian changes correctly, then the Canadian gov't looked at decreasing the current booster weight limit from 40# to match the American 30# and they decided against it.

    3. The minimum mass to use a booster cushion would remain at 18 kg

    The United States allows children starting at 13.6 kg to use booster cushions. Research has shown that these smaller children are safer in a child restraint system with an integral five-point harness rather than using a booster cushion. Therefore the proposal would not reduce the minimum Canadian mass requirements for the booster cushions.



    I'm glad I came across this thread as I am currently processing when I might decide to let my almost 40# almost 6yo ride in a booster, even for a short field trip or something...and was starting to lean towards 7yo but if there is research to suggest 8yo, *that* works for me. The part that worries me about it would be the comparison I draw between my 1972 car w/ those permanent not changing shoulder belts that they changed to our current style of retractile ones. Car seat 5pt harness would be comparable to the 1972 style of seat belt and that did have it's draw backs and would have to have been really hard on your head/neck...

    The other thing that makes me pause is the fact that my almost 6yo is the size of a 4yo. He is the oldest and among the shortest in his class. He isn't even on the top slots of his GN, I lean towards if it ain't broke, don't fix it! LOL Besides, I've just switched him to FF! LOL

    tam

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  4. #22
    CPS Technician glockchick's Avatar
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    That is doable! I was scared it'd be higher. Any idea when it'll be out?

    Duh!!! Nevermind. I see now. /blush
    Shanna - EMT-B, Paramedic Student, CPST, & Mom
    Trenton (16), Michael (14), Gabriel (12), Miss Abigail (9) - BB, Kaleigh(7) - PW SGL, TB SS, and Caleb (5) - FR 90

    They just don't make em like they used to.

  5. #23
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixels View Post
    NHTSA and AAP both say that children should remain in their harnessed seats as long as they fit up to the 8th birthday, and then move to a booster. This is based on evidence (they say, don't ask me for source) that younger children are at greater risk in a booster.
    Really? Is that really recent? I just took my tech class in September, and that wasn't mentioned, although my instructors did strongly encourage us to keep kids harnessed longer stating that "each step to the next seat is a step down in safety". Will you please share a link to that if you have it handy--I'd like to use that for parents. Thank you!

    I put my 6 yr old in a booster right after he turned six this year and hit 40 lbs. He's done really well. I'm more comfortable w/him in a harnessed seat..but don't have one that fits him AND works in my car for his weight (had to switch belt paths on the Regent once he hit 40 lbs and it doesn't work well in my car that way).

    henrietta
    henrietta
    former CPST & Mom extraordinaire of 2 rowdy little boys & 1 spunky girl toddler, among hundreds of other skills!
    #1, age 9.5, Harmony Literider or Transit backless booster, occasional Safety First Incognito
    #2, age 6.5, Cybex Xfit booster/Harmony folding travel booster/Evenflo hbb
    #3 age 15 months, Britax Advocate CT/Combi Cocorro

  6. #24
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by tam_shops View Post
    The part that worries me about it would be the comparison I draw between my 1972 car w/ those permanent not changing shoulder belts that they changed to our current style of retractile ones. Car seat 5pt harness would be comparable to the 1972 style of seat belt and that did have it's draw backs and would have to have been really hard on your head/neck...


    tam
    Not necessarily... automatic locking belts are safe, it's just that they aren't comfortable and the whole thing about switchable retractors is that people are more comfortable in them and thus more likely to use them, not because they are safer, but because people don't like to wear seatbelts, you have to do all this extra engineering to make them more comfortable so even reticent folks will put them on in the first place. (ok, wow, long sentence...but I hope I got the basic point across, lol... then again, I'd replace them, I wouldn't really trust a seatbelt as old as me...fibers break down and whatnot )
    Julie
    CPST since 2003, pu"R"ple since 2008, three kids growing too fast since 1997, 1999 and 2006

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

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  8. #25
    CPS Technician Pixels's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrietta View Post
    Really? Is that really recent? I just took my tech class in September, and that wasn't mentioned, although my instructors did strongly encourage us to keep kids harnessed longer stating that "each step to the next seat is a step down in safety". Will you please share a link to that if you have it handy--I'd like to use that for parents. Thank you!

    I put my 6 yr old in a booster right after he turned six this year and hit 40 lbs. He's done really well. I'm more comfortable w/him in a harnessed seat..but don't have one that fits him AND works in my car for his weight (had to switch belt paths on the Regent once he hit 40 lbs and it doesn't work well in my car that way).

    henrietta
    The AAP and NHTSA policies were announced on March 21, 2011.

    AAP Policy. There is a decision tree on page 790 that summarizes the several pages of text.

    NHTSA policy.
    Last edited by Pixels; 10-31-2011 at 08:34 AM. Reason: spelling
    Melissa, CPST and Mom to three

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  10. #26
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    I like the older age harnessing suggestions as most "average" people will undercut them anyway in my thinking. It seems to me that's what currently happens!

    For me, I harnessed my oldest until 7 and a HUGE piece of that is his siblings. Maybe if he was an only he would have been booster ready at 5, but he wasn't and neither is his 5 (almost 6) year old brother. Too much chance to get into trouble with the siblings. So I booster train in a different car when they are ALONE so that the chance of problems is minimized and they learn how to control those impulses. DS2 may not be ready at 7!

    The kids I know IRL who are still harnessed and are similar ages to my boys (I have 4 car seat crazy friends IRL, how lucky!) need to be harnessed for the same reasons.....can't sit right every time because of siblings and the chance to mess around play around. They all fit in their seats so why fix what ain't broken!!

    I think the way KQ put it is perfect....it's not a one-time switch but a process of learning overtime. So to start learning at 5 is okay with me, but to transition that early for most kids is too early to me.....they're still maturing.
    Trevor - 10yo, 56", 61 lbs, Turbo LBB
    Blake - 8yo, 54", 61lbs Parkway
    Izzy - 5yo, 43", 43 lbs, Frontier Harnessed
    CPST Mama driving an 09 Sienna!

  11. #27
    CPS Technician fyrfightermomma's Avatar
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    I'm confused, if the new recs are to harness to the limits or until age 8, why are We always telling parents on here that its fine too booster the 5 and up crew if they fit and sit properly. And We always have arguments on how on older kids, head excursion can be increased on older kids in a harness. I'm lost....


    Anyways, I have no plans to reharness E or harness past 5 for S. I feel at their age and size they are perfectly safe in a decent sturdy booster with SIP.

    E 8y 43 lbs 58" Harmony NBB
    S 7y 52 lbs 54" Harmony NBB
    J-4y 38 lbs Graco Headwise 70 Britax Roundabout 50

  12. #28
    Senior Community Member solmama's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    I harnessed my dd until 6, mainly due to impulsiveness (she's now too tall to ride in any harnessed seat).

    My ds, however, is already riding in a booster because he's mature and ready and more than 40lbs. But, I wonder if I should re-harness him. His booster (B570) fits him wonderfully and he sits well.

    I'm not so sure these new recommendations are going to make any difference to most people. It's those of us who know that are going to wonder.
    DD-8 yrs, 54", 65lbs, SK Monterey in Pepto pink
    DS-6 yrs, 47", 49lbs, Frontier 85

  13. #29
    Senior Community Member rachelandtyke's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    I think one thing that makes it confusing is that they put an age or to the limits of the seat. Which for all the folks who buy 40 lb short shelled seats, is going to be much earlier (possibly even under 5) than those who buy seats like the Nautilus and Frontier. So it's OK for a 4 year old who hits 40 lbs and outgrows the small seat, but not OK if you own a seat that is longer lasing.

    Personally, DD was fully harnessed past her 6th birthday until she hit 40 lbs fully clothed. Our law reads 40 lbs or 6 years old for a booster. Our boosters start at 30 lbs, so I don't feel I'm cutting it close with her weight at all. She is boostered for short ride and harnessed for longer rides. She will be mature enough to be fully boostered before she is 7 I am sure. At that time, though, she will probably still fit in her TF harnessed judging by how much room she currently has left.
    DD1: 11.0, 59 lbs and 53 in, TB, Harmony Literider
    DS: 7.1 44 lbs and 47 in, Vivo, HBTB
    DD2: 3.5, 28 lbs and 37 in, rfing RA50

  14. #30
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Yeah, Rachel, I have the same kind of question. Seats are SO different.

    What does Britax say? They have the tallest seat...

    If the rec is to the limits of the harnessed seat, then the Frontier85 means people will harness WELL past 5. I'm just saying if we follow that rec...(not that all do).

    My 5-year-old doesn't have too much room left in the Prosport, so really the only seat on the market that would get us into harnessing to 8 is the Frontier85. And yeah, I'll do it, I have no problem with it. But if I own a Scenera then I booster my child at 4? (That's when he hit 40 lbs, his 4th birthday).

    (My kids are tall so I can't speak for all kids, of course.)

    Since Britax is the only one making a harness this big, I'm curious what their stance is. The seat obviously isn't labeled to use as a harness to 5, then stop unless there is some special need. Just curious. 20" top slots is very high. Are they maybe trying to encourage extended harnessing? I don't know. I'm just wondering, since I assume taking the leap to those top slots and topping out the market has some reasoning behind it?
    Seatbelt and 59" (9 YO)
    Harmony Youth (8 YO)/Clek Olli (6YO)
    Harmony Dreamtime (5 YO)
    Clek Fllo (3 YO, RF)/Graco 40 (15 months)
    + 2 Recaro Performance boosters in spare car

  15. #31
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    "I" am not comfortable with my children being booster riders at 5, or transporting a young 5yo in my vehicle in a booster, BUT if your 5 year old rides 100% correctly I do not think they are unsafe, given they meet the size and age recommendations for the booster. I have never heard evidence to support either a harness or a booster being safer for a child over the age of 4-5yo, however "I" like to harness so long as they fit and everyone is happy. which is why my 7yo is harnessed, and we have no plans to change. So if 8 is the upper limit, I suppose we'll meet that. She does ride in a HBB perfectly in other vehicles, she is only harnessed full time in our van, which we also travel in, another reason she prefers to be harnessed. At a safe age I think your child's opinion can count- if my 7yo wanted to be in a booster full time I'd have no issue with that. She says she never wants to come out of her Regent though

    Good luck!
    7yo harnessed in a Regent & boostered in a Turbo

    4yo in a Marathon & Nautilus

  16. #32
    Car-Seat.Org Zealot skaterbabs's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    What we do know for a fact is that the brain synapses that govern impulse control do not even BEGIN to develop until around the 5th birthday, and it is a gradual process that generally ends some time in the mid twenties. That said, by age 7 a parent can reasonably expect that the AVERAGE child will be able to properly sit in a booster seat.
    Rebekah Branch, CPST from May 2005 until June 2011
    Mom to CJ (7/96, seatbelt), Gregory (4/98, seatbelt), & Joyjoy (10/03, misc. booster seats)
    "That which you create in beauty and goodness and truth lives on."
    - Denis Waitley

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  18. #33
    CPS Technician luckyclov's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    My 7 year old is still harnessed. She'll be harnessed until she outgrows her FR85. She's safer in a harness because she will not sit properly for longer then a few minutes in a booster. She does ride, occasionally, in a HBB, when she's in DH's truck. We have to provide a lot of cues and reminders. I think she'll be fairly close to 8, maybe a little older, when she makes the fulltime HBB transition. Hopefully, by then, she's fully ready.

    I moved my DS1 to a HBB at 5 years and a few months old (he's 9 now). He was close to 50 lbs (48 maybe?). He was a mature kid and a responsible rider from day one, even remembering, without cues, to buckle his OS PW (great fit) back up each and every time he got out. I'm not entirely certain we would do it any differently now.
    CPST & Mom to:
    Keep (11 yrs old, 57", 80 lbs), in an Olli, Ozzi & BB
    Sass (10 yrs old, 54", 76 lbs), in Santa Fe, Monterey & Olli
    Zilla (4 yrs old, 38", 36 lbs), FF in a PS, RXT & FR85
    Rollin' in a 2014 Ody, 2012 F-150 SuperCrew & Luigi, a peppy little 2012 Fiat 500

  19. #34
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixels View Post
    The AAP and NHTSA policies were announced on March 21, 2011.

    AAP Policy. There is a decision tree on page 790 that summarizes the several pages of text.

    NHTSA policy.
    Thank you very much! Much appreciated, as I'm still learning where all to look and learn more.

    henrietta
    henrietta
    former CPST & Mom extraordinaire of 2 rowdy little boys & 1 spunky girl toddler, among hundreds of other skills!
    #1, age 9.5, Harmony Literider or Transit backless booster, occasional Safety First Incognito
    #2, age 6.5, Cybex Xfit booster/Harmony folding travel booster/Evenflo hbb
    #3 age 15 months, Britax Advocate CT/Combi Cocorro

  20. #35
    CPS Technician luckyclov's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by henrietta View Post
    Thank you very much! Much appreciated, as I'm still learning where all to look and learn more.

    henrietta
    I have a print-out of NHTSA's policy/recommendations as the cover of my tech binder.
    CPST & Mom to:
    Keep (11 yrs old, 57", 80 lbs), in an Olli, Ozzi & BB
    Sass (10 yrs old, 54", 76 lbs), in Santa Fe, Monterey & Olli
    Zilla (4 yrs old, 38", 36 lbs), FF in a PS, RXT & FR85
    Rollin' in a 2014 Ody, 2012 F-150 SuperCrew & Luigi, a peppy little 2012 Fiat 500

  21. #36
    Admin - CPST Instructor murphydog77's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by clov878 View Post
    I have a print-out of NHTSA's policy/recommendations as the cover of my tech binder.
    I got this from the CPS Board's newsletter. It easily shows the differences between the policies.
    Attached Images Attached Images


  22. #37
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    So it is 8-12 for a booster for NHTSA. Good to know. So I'll just pencil in the 8th birthday to being booster training, then, and be happy with that unless any research changes before then. I'm pretty sure the Frontier85 ought to get us there.

    And, um, 2 and up for AAP for a booster.
    Seatbelt and 59" (9 YO)
    Harmony Youth (8 YO)/Clek Olli (6YO)
    Harmony Dreamtime (5 YO)
    Clek Fllo (3 YO, RF)/Graco 40 (15 months)
    + 2 Recaro Performance boosters in spare car

  23. #38
    CPS Technician Pixels's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by bnsnyde View Post
    So it is 8-12 for a booster for NHTSA. Good to know. So I'll just pencil in the 8th birthday to being booster training, then, and be happy with that unless any research changes before then. I'm pretty sure the Frontier85 ought to get us there.

    And, um, 2 and up for AAP for a booster.
    NHTSA says 4-7 year olds should be in a harness if they still fit in their seat, and when they outgrow their harnessed seat to get a booster.

    Similarly, AAP says 2-7 year olds should be in a harness if they still fit in their seat, and when they outgrow their harnessed seat to get a booster. They aren't saying that kids should automatically go to a booster at 2.
    Melissa, CPST and Mom to three

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  25. #39
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    That makes sense.

    Side by side 2 and up and 8-12 is just very different. But I know it's a range and that 2 is not automatic. I do see a lot of 2-year-olds in boosters. I can only guess why. Sometimes I think putting an age OK's it for people, who knows. Maybe that's why age 1 seems to equal time to go FF around here, too. And to 2 + is still catching on.
    Seatbelt and 59" (9 YO)
    Harmony Youth (8 YO)/Clek Olli (6YO)
    Harmony Dreamtime (5 YO)
    Clek Fllo (3 YO, RF)/Graco 40 (15 months)
    + 2 Recaro Performance boosters in spare car

  26. #40
    CPS Technician tam_shops's Avatar
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    Re: Why the new recommendation to harness to 7?

    Heather, 8yo to booster works for me, that will give me two and a bit years to adjust to FF before having to deal with a booster! I love the concrete comparison and simple written explanation, it's so hard to know what is the *right* thing to do, I'd love to see the actual research that lead up to those decisions, but that'd probably be boring and this was simple and easy to remember! LOL

    Julie, thank you, that makes perfect sense. Having driven w/ those old seat belts and now these ones, I get it. I always thought it was to your benefit to go forward and stop more slowly than the sudden slam you'd get w/ a permanent seat belt, but comfort makes far more sense!

    tam

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