Question Kia Forte/ Radian/ Diono/ inboard or outboard

Hello everyone,

I am just about ready to purchase a carseat for my 13.5 month old son. I hope I have done enough research to not sound idiotic or get flamed for asking something stupid, so here goes. I also have a lot of questions that I have been saving up, so I hope that is ok too. Thanks in advance.

My son is around 29" tall and 19 or 20 pounds right now. (I haven't weighed him since he was 18 pounds at a year but he feels heavier now.) He has consistently been around the 5th percentile for weight, and the 25th percentile for height.

He is currently in a Chicco keyfit 22, and has about 1.5" -2" of space above his head in relation to the hard shell height. His base in currently behind the drivers seat and it fits just fine without bracing.

I also recently purchased a 2012 Kia forte, and want to find the best car seat possible for this car, but I would like to erf if possible. I was leaning towards a Britax with my old car because a Radian would not fit, but I would like the additional erf height of a Radian.

I went to a store and tried a (broken foam- so unavailable for purchase but ok for checking fit) Radian XT in my car. It fit behind the passenger seat with the seat moved forward, but it was bracing/ touching the front seat. I read my owners manual and didn't see anything in the airbag or car seat section about not having the carseat touching the back of the seat due to advanced airbags, but the car does have some sort of advanced airbags. There were lots of warnings about not putting a carseat in the front passenger seat, so I am hoping that if I was not allowed to brace it would have the same warnings (provided the carseat manufacturer allows bracing, that is). We didn't "install" the seat, just wedged it in there.

We also tried the Radian in the middle, but my car has no latch in the middle and the manual warns against using the latch in the middle. My middle seat also has an armrest that the lady at the store said might restrict me to using an outboard position.

I think that's about it for background info, now for my questions (thanks in advance everyone!)

So a latch question. I read that some carseats require 11 inches of space between the latches, and then I read that some carseats have a "range" that allows more than eleven inches in between. I think with this range I heard that some people use the outboard latches and place the seat in the middle? Is this safe? Or is it is an at your own risk but acceptable thing to do? (Kind of like the "warning" of rear facing limits of 32 inches, where people just keep rear facing until the one inch rule is met?) Sorry if that is a stupid question or is horribly unsafe, I just have no idea and want to do what is safest for my baby.

Will the armrest restrict my carseat placement to an outboard position? The manual did not say anything about it, and I did read the carseat and airbag section completely.

Should I opt with middle placement even if I just do a proper seatbelt install? My car has side airbags, which kind of makes me more at ease and also less at ease if baby gets hit by an airbag.

Do people on this forum have a preferred place to install seats? From what I have read here everyone has a really good idea for safety, and my baby will be travelling lots and on the highway in the winter, so I want to make sure that if something happens he will be safe.

If the other Radian fit, will the new Diono Radian 3in1 fit my car too? I know you all aren't fortune tellers, but you might have an idea of size comparison. This is presuming the bracing will be allowed. (I did read another post where someone asked the bracing advanced airbags question and the answer was if it didn't state it in the owners manual then it should be ok, but I just want to make sure before I purchase a really expensive seat.)

Also, I guess I have had less than perfect opinions of 3 in 1s up to now, does anyone have any thoughts on this new seat as a 3 in 1? I always just thought boosters were cheap enough that I would want something that would be really good for right now.

The store I tried that Radian in was sold out (West Coast Kids) and they said that the new seats "should" arrive in November. Does anyone know if this will be accurate? I plan on calling the store until they put me on a wait list, mostly because I am worried that my son will outgrow his current infant seat. (I have no idea how long that last inch will take him to grow and I don't want to to caught without something).

I am debating if I should order a current Radian online while I still can, or wait it out for a new one, or even just get a really cheap rear facing one until the new Diono Radians come out (if he outgrows the chicco keyfit).

I think that is everything, if not I will add on.

Thank you everyone in advance. I really want to get the proper seat for my son, and keep him rear facing as long as possible.

Suzanne

You won't get flamed for asking a stupid question here. We try not to bite.

Unless there is a restriction in the vehicle manual, you can install in front of the flip-down armrest. It used to be a fairly common prohibition, because they hadn't tested it and didn't know if it would be dangerous. Now they have found that it's not really dangerous, and most if not all manufacturers allow it.

Side airbags are not a concern for children in restraints, unless there is a specific warning in the vehicle manual about it. The shell of the seat will protect the child.

Unfortunately, manufacturers are not usually crystal clear when it comes to bracing. You need to read your airbag section carefully, looking for warnings about leaning things on the front seat, hanging cargo off the back of the seat, not letting kids kick the back of the seat, etc. Basically anything that says not to push against the front seat means that the airbag sensors can be negatively affected by bracing.

Standard LATCH/UAS spacing is 11 inches. Some vehicles, and some restraints, allow borrowing the inner anchors to create center LATCH. In order to do this, it must be allowed by BOTH vehicle and child restraint. The Radian allows borrowing as long as spacing is between 11 and 14 inches; however, Kia never allows borrowing, so you must use the seatbelt if you install in the center.

The center position is the safest seating position in the vehicle, as long as you can get a proper installation. LATCH/UAS was just supposed to make things simpler, but they failed on that account. A seatbelt is perfectly safe to install a child restraint.

The new Radians are supposed to have the same exterior dimensions, except the seat pan is supposed to be wider I believe.

AFAIK, we haven't seen any kids of the appropriate size in the Diono as a booster, so I don't know if it's a good booster or not. Boosters are cheap, and new products are coming out all the time with improvements, so I figure I will cross the booster bridge when we come to it.

Thank you so much for all your help! And really fast too!

Back to borrowing the latch, is this a "real" rule? Or like the 32" rule? Probably real I am guessing, too bad... I guess I wish I had read the manual before purchasing the car, but it's not the end of the world. If I only have a lap belt in the middle can I still install a carseat there? (I have to check when I get to my car, but when I can't remember seeing a middle seat shoulder belt when were trying to install that Radian.) I "thought" I was upgrading my car, but it seems there are lots of issues with car seats and this car so far.

Do most of you guys without centre latches and that aren't allowed to borrow use the seatbelt in the middle? Or stick with outboard and latches? I only have one kid right now (and for the foreseeable future) so that isn't an issue trying to add in more kids.

I will carefully re read the manual looking for anything that mentions anything touching the seat, not just a car seat, thanks for that tip! If I find nothing should I wait for a new Radian? I won't mind paying the extra money, as long as it's the seat for me

Thanks again for all the help!!

suzdream said:

Back to borrowing the latch, is this a "real" rule? Or like the 32" rule? Probably real I am guessing, too bad... I guess I wish I had read the manual before purchasing the car, but it's not the end of the world. If I only have a lap belt in the middle can I still install a carseat there? (I have to check when I get to my car, but when I can't remember seeing a middle seat shoulder belt when were trying to install that Radian.) I "thought" I was upgrading my car, but it seems there are lots of issues with car seats and this car so far.

Do most of you guys without centre latches and that aren't allowed to borrow use the seatbelt in the middle? Or stick with outboard and latches? I only have one kid right now (and for the foreseeable future) so that isn't an issue trying to add in more kids.

I will carefully re read the manual looking for anything that mentions anything touching the seat, not just a car seat, thanks for that tip! If I find nothing should I wait for a new Radian? I won't mind paying the extra money, as long as it's the seat for me

Click to expand...

Yup, it's a real rule, and in this case the rule is the car's rule. A bunch of cars (I don't know about the Kia) made the LATCH system so that it's reinforced on one side and on the other, but not in the middle. That means if you borrowed the lower anchors, in a crash, you'd be pulling half from the passenger side and half from the driver's side, and it wasn't made to do that. Seat belts, on the other hand, are made to restrain a 250+ lbs person, so they're capable of holding a properly used car seat in a crash.

I don't have LATCH in the center. I don't have LATCH in one of my cars. I use the seat belt pretty much 100% of the time, in any position. I like the seat belt installation better in my cars and with my seats. I find with other peoples' cars and seats I like the seat belt installation better maybe 50% of the time too. That's because of a lot of factors: with a seat belt installation you can position the car seat different places (not just right smack in the center) and that helps with getting more space in the back, positioning a RF seat right in the middle, stuff like that. I'm on team seat belt! Go seat belts!

Nearly all seat belts are fine for installing car seats. The lap only belt in the middle of my Honda is super duper easy. Now, I only say nearly all because those old ones where the shoulder belt were connected to the door are a special challenge. But there's none of that going on in a 2011 car. You're good to try any of the seat belts in the back of your kia.

I have my kid outboard because my husband is super tall and our seats won't fit behind him, but our infant seat was in the middle with the seat belt. So the LATCH is really only one factor in my cars: you just find the place where you get the best installation and where you can use it correctly every time, and you go with that.

It took me DAYS to figure out that my Mazda has a prohibition on touching / bracing in the passenger seat. That manual is not clear, at all! I eventually found the stuff about not kicking or hanging anything on the seat, and that cinched it for me: Mazda is telling me hands off the seat, and that means no car seat on the seat either. But seriously, I'd nearly memorized the stupid airbag section (not the car seat section) by the time I figured it out. Blah! We had no one in the front seat of our Mazda for almost 2 years because the Radian can't touch.

And I, personally, wouldn't wait for a new Radian if you're going for a Radian. But I have a great big kid who pretty nearly certainly won't fit in it as a booster. And if you want the new colors, trust me; we understand.

Not borrowing for center LATCH is a real rule. When the vehicle manufacturer doesn't allow it, usually that means they are not reinforced that way. The anchors are typically reinforced in pairs, with a bar connecting them.

All 2012 vehicles have lap/shoulder belts, but yes, you can install with a lap-only belt as well. It's the lap portion of the lap/shoulder belt that does the work of holding the seat in place.

I used seatbelt in the center of my car as long as I had only one child, because it's about 30% safer. When I had my second child, they both had to be moved outboard because there is no fitting two seats next to each other in my car.

Awesome!! Thanks so much for that borrowing info. It helps me when I understand things as to why I shouldn't break the rules.

Also, if the Radian fit in the store without actually installing the belt, but just positioning the seat in my car, do you think I would be good? I have to order the seat online if I go with a Radian instead of waiting for the new ones. I don't care about the colour of my carseat, I just want baby to be safe. The main reason I would wait for a new carseat would be so that I could actually test it out in my car and make sure it fits before I order it.

I think I am on team seatbelt now! I like that info about positioning it in different ways as opposed to stuck in the one spot. Thanks again for the info

Fitting in the space is one thing. Being able to actually install it is another, so there are no guarantees.

Do you have the hatchback or the sedan? My brother has the hatchback. I am probably going to see him on Tuesday.

Hi,

I have the sedan, which probably means that the vehicle is too different for you to check thanks for thinking of that!

I kind of forgot to mention that I need two seats, the other is for my moms car, a Chevrolet impala (not sure of the year) so now I am thinking of getting a sale radian online and testing it in my car since her car is so big it will definitely fit in there.

She is going to be doing lots and lots of highway driving with him (she is my childcare for work and lives a couple hours away) so I want her to have a really good seat too. I know her car is a lot bigger than mine so it might be a good way to test it out for me.

Another question are stores allowed to sell display models of seats? I was somewhere and they said that was all another store had left and they would sell me that one. It seems unsafe to me but I have nothing to base that on. Maybe it's totally fine just have to watch date of manufacture...?

Thanks again and I'm on my phone now so hopefully this works and doesn't have weird autocorrects.

I think if you know you want a radian in one of your cars, buying one and trying is a great plan. You could get one from a place with a good return policy for extra insurance.

I've never heard of a legal rule about floor models, but I would steer clear. It might be fine even if it was abused in the store, but if I was then in a terrible crash there's no way I would want to have any reason whatsoever to question myself. You don't get second chances with car safety, and I couldn't live with the what ifs.

So with regards to the advanced airbags, in the manual it says
- "not to place objects between the front door and front seat"
- then it talks about not replacing the front seat or modifying the front seat because it could adversly affect the operation of the occupant detection system and the advanced airbags. Then it says "For the same reason, do not attach anything the seat, dashboard, or door, even temporarily."

Would that last note (which is the only one I could find in the whole manual) mean that I couldn't brace the carseat? The carseat wouldn't really be attached, nor would it touch an area that has airbags releasing from. It looks like the airbags come out of the side of the seat (next to the door), so would putting the RF carseat in the middle of my backseat be ok? It might still be touching the front seats a bit, I am not too sure offhand.
Should I try to avoid bracing altogether? Would outboard be ok if inboard is ok?

Sorry for asking more questions, I just really want to get everything sorted and know what I can safely do in my car and get a carseat that works with my car.

Thanks again everyone for responding! This site really is a lifesaver.

Don't be sorry! I, for one, love answering questions. We want informed parents. Plus, it's the best way ever to avoid my real work: I'm not screwing around on the internet, I'm saving lives!

My interpretation of that part of your manual is, also, don't brace. Conservatively, it would also mean don't touch at all (touching is when you can get a piece of paper through, bracing is more like when you smush the seat up against the car seat).

There might be different rules for the driver's seat and the passenger's seat, though. That's because there's often a sensor in the passenger's seat telling the computer how heavy the person in the seat is (since you could put no one there, or a 50 lbs person there or a 250 lbs person there), but sometimes they don't have that sensor in the driver's seat (since there's always a driver). We're trying not to mess up those sensors, because we don't want to mess with the airbags. So, maybe having the seat behind the driver is an option? I'm not a Kia expert at all, though.

Unless there is a specific prohibition about side airbags and car seats in the back seats (which I would seriously doubt in a 2012 car), there's no problem with side airbags.

I hope it's ok if I keep going with this thread...

I received my new seat, a radian xt. I got it online and on sale. A few interesting things, date of manufacture is jan 2011, and there was a sticker on the box that said 2011/ 2012 compliant.

I installed it centre rear facing and with the seatbelt, lap and shoulder. I twisted the female seat belt end twice, but it was a stretch to get it to go completely around the second time. That said, I am pretty weak so it wasn't done with a ton of normal force.

The carseat is touching each of the front seats (or resting on them perhaps) but I can easily run my hand between the seats. I sat on the seat after I got the seat belt clicked in, but I think it would have been too awkward to feed the belt through while I was on it. I think I got it pretty tight. I tested the seatbelt without twists, and the seat moved, so I unchecked, twisted twice, clicked into place, and then had to re feed the seatbelt up to lock. Does this sound right? I was just guessing on the order.

I moved the croch buckle in as well (kid is sleeping so I couldn't try him out in it). An moved the shoulder straps down. I think I moved them to the fourth one down because when I tried to move the headwings(I think) down I thought they were as down as they would go. I might have to adjust this when he is up, but I think I can do it with the seat installed.

I haven't tethered yet (that would be on the floor only, the one up by the back window is just for forward facing, right?).

It doesn't move side to side much at all. Definitely less than an inch. Obviously it will move when I push on it from the back, to cocoon maybe?

There looked to be a few buckles on the back that I didn't use, one was zip tied to the seat. Are these the UAS pieces that I just leave alone? Do I need to store them separately in the seat?

And where exactly do I put my manual? My keyfit had a little box area to stick it. Do I just loop it with that string anywhere?

Sorry for all the questions, I read my manual, but I had a keyfit infant seat, and I think I read somewhere else that it was one of the easiest to install, and I probably had someone do it for me.

I did go to a car seat clinic, but it was only every month or so, but I don't remember much, and I had the other seat. To get a tech to look my new install over, does that cost money? I think I've seen a list of techs by city floating around. I would like to get it checked but depending on the cost.

Thanks for helping, and sorry if it's in the manual, I miss things sometimes.

Enjoy your new seat!

If you post where you live, there might be a tech from this board close to you. They generally don't charge $$, but it's nice to give something or a gift. They do take the time needed to help us!

With regard to the new Dionos, I know that snugglebugz is already shipping some colours and some styles - I ordered a Radian RXT in the blue (whatever it's called) and I've been told it won't ship until the middle of December. If you check them out on facebook you can ask them a question and they've got lots more information than WCK.

I live in Edmonton. A gift is a great idea! Like a gift card to carters / osh cosh or something? (being a single mom makes things tight so I just like to be able to budget)

When I am putting him in the seat I pull the strap near the bottom and it ratchet clicks, does each click tighten it a bit? My old seat I just pulled the strap and it tightened (well, that's how I attempted to do it, might not have been right). I clicked it what seemed liked a million times yesterday, but it didn't seem to get tighter.

Also, since it rests on each of the front seats, am I allowed to move the front seats back a bit to get the carseat more upright ? I am pretty short (5'1") so I can't go too far back but i also don't mind my seat far up. Since the two front seats aren't exactly the same distance up, is it ok if the carseat is slightly crooked? The carseat is really stable so if that's all I'm looking for then I should be good.

Thanks again everyone

If you rear face tether (it's optional), you use the D-ring that came with the seat to create a tether point down and towards the front of the vehicle. You are correct that the one behind the vehicle seat is for forward facing only.

The manual gets attached with the loop through one of the holes along the top of the seat. If you pull the cover back a bit, you'll see a couple of holes in the plastic right along the top rim of the seat. One of those can be used to attach the top tether and keep the hook from being a projectile if the tether is not used. Another can be used with the loop to attach the manual, and the Child Emergency Information card. If you need pics, I have them, LMK and I'll post them here.

The ratcheting adjuster keeps you from tightening the harness too much. When the harness is very loose, it will pull smoothly. As it starts getting close, it will start ratcheting. As long as the harness is not yet tight enough, each pull will get it a bit tighter. When it's tight enough, it won't tighten any more no matter how many times you tug. One way to speed the process of tightening is to reach around the back of the seat with your other hand and pull the shoulder straps there. That will keep it from starting the ratcheting process quite so soon.

You'll need to check your vehicle owner's manual to determine if you can safely brace the Radian against the front seat. Check the airbag section carefully, looking for warnings that indicate that there are weight sensors in the front seat back, including warnings about not letting kids kick the front seat, not hanging cargo off the front seat, or not leaning anything against the front seat. If no such warning exist, then you can brace. You can use the front seats to force the Radian more upright, as long as the entire base of the Radian remains in contact with the vehicle seat. Crooked is fine, as long as both sides remain in contact.

I am waiting on the service manager to get me some info at the Kia dealership. But if I know my dealership, they will take their sweet time, and I will probably end up googling numbers and calling myself.

Is the main concern about advanced airbags the sensor in the passenger seat for when to activate the passenger airbag? I think I read that if no one sits up there then it doesn't matter if the seat is braced even if the manufacturer doesn't allow it? The issue is with it being improperly calibrated, like it will read -60 pounds and not go on (potentially) when someone near the weight limit sits on the seat? Could I (in theory) just look at my airbag light and if it goes on when someone sits then be ok?

I am a single parent and never have people in my car anyways. So, until I hear from Kia, can I just leave my carseat the way it is? If someone needs to sit in my car they can just sit in the back? That never happens, but I guess you never know.

I am totally ok with making the front passenger seat off limits since it hasn't even been used yet with this car.

My main concern with leaving the car seat the way it is, is that I am waiting for the new Diono seats to come, since I need to purchase another car seat still. (Grandma will be doing lots of road trips and needs something good). If this seat won't work in the long term with my car I want to figure something else out instead of purchasing another large seat.

Since it's the end of the week is the angle adjuster out yet? Anyone order one? That might be enough so that the carseat isn't braced for me.

Sorry if none of this made sense, at work on a nightshift, and really need coffee

The advanced airbag sensors determine not only whether the airbag deploys or not, but also at what speed. The warning light only tells you if the airbag has been shut off because the car thinks a small child is sitting in the seat. The car's computer takes information from the weight sensors and combines that with info about whether or not the passenger is wearing their seatbelt and sensors that determine the severity of the crash, and determines whether airbag deployment is warranted or not. If it is warranted, then it also determines whether to do a faster, harder deployment or to do a longer, slower deployment. Having a braced carseat gives misinformation to those sensors so the airbags may not give the proper amount of protection to the front seat passenger.

As long as nobody ever sits in the front seat, then it's not really an issue. You might end up having to replace an airbag that deployed unnecessarily, but in that scenario that's not really a big concern, IMO. It will be just one more thing to replace, along with your front end and driver's airbag.

Diono has the angle adjusters available for retailers to order, but Diono is not selling them directly and thus far no retailers have them available for sale. It should be very soon, as some retailers have ordered them from Diono. If you watch http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?p=2052227 I'm sure someone will post when they become available.

Thanks for the airbag info about releasing at certain speeds and strengths. That makes a lot more sense or everyone would just brace (if needed) and watch the airbag light, I knew it couldn't be that easy

I think I'll just make the front seat off limits until I find out for sure that it's ok. I've never driven more than one person in my car, so it will be super easy for them to sit in the back.

I think I would like to tether my seat, but that will be a project for another day. I will post again if I need more help!

Thanks everyone

KaiLing said:

Yup, it's a real rule, and in this case the rule is the car's rule. A bunch of cars (I don't know about the Kia) made the LATCH system so that it's reinforced on one side and on the other, but not in the middle. That means if you borrowed the lower anchors, in a crash, you'd be pulling half from the passenger side and half from the driver's side, and it wasn't made to do that. Seat belts, on the other hand, are made to restrain a 250+ lbs person, so they're capable of holding a properly used car seat in a crash.

I don't have LATCH in the center. I don't have LATCH in one of my cars. I use the seat belt pretty much 100% of the time, in any position. I like the seat belt installation better in my cars and with my seats. I find with other peoples' cars and seats I like the seat belt installation better maybe 50% of the time too. That's because of a lot of factors: with a seat belt installation you can position the car seat different places (not just right smack in the center) and that helps with getting more space in the back, positioning a RF seat right in the middle, stuff like that. I'm on team seat belt! Go seat belts!

Nearly all seat belts are fine for installing car seats. The lap only belt in the middle of my Honda is super duper easy. Now, I only say nearly all because those old ones where the shoulder belt were connected to the door are a special challenge. But there's none of that going on in a 2011 car. You're good to try any of the seat belts in the back of your kia.

I have my kid outboard because my husband is super tall and our seats won't fit behind him, but our infant seat was in the middle with the seat belt. So the LATCH is really only one factor in my cars: you just find the place where you get the best installation and where you can use it correctly every time, and you go with that.

It took me DAYS to figure out that my Mazda has a prohibition on touching / bracing in the passenger seat. That manual is not clear, at all! I eventually found the stuff about not kicking or hanging anything on the seat, and that cinched it for me: Mazda is telling me hands off the seat, and that means no car seat on the seat either. But seriously, I'd nearly memorized the stupid airbag section (not the car seat section) by the time I figured it out. Blah! We had no one in the front seat of our Mazda for almost 2 years because the Radian can't touch.

And I, personally, wouldn't wait for a new Radian if you're going for a Radian. But I have a great big kid who pretty nearly certainly won't fit in it as a booster. And if you want the new colors, trust me; we understand.

Click to expand...

Just a quicke question: What kind of Mazda do you drive? is a Mazda 3, sedan?