How good is EPS foam?

bnsnyde · Sep 21, 2011

Just looking for opinions or any actual research.

I had someone (a cop who responds to fatal accidents) tell me a baby was in a side-impact collision and his head hit the side of the carseat. It had EPS foam. The baby died from a head injury. So this cops warns people to always put rolled up towels alongside any infant seat (under the actual cover) to cushion the head. He claimed my Chaperone would not need that, though. And it is pretty cushy.

So now I'm hitting the sides of carseats from the inside (looking a bit odd, OK!) to see how hard they are. Hmmm...most are not actually cushy at all.

So beside the head protection question, are carseat makers going to advance EPS foam? I read something about NASCAR material in the future...
And why is the EPS foam always so thin? Would more be better?

carseatcoach · Sep 21, 2011

Not all crashes are survivable. Rolled-up towels would not make a difference in an unsurvivable crash.

bnsnyde · Sep 21, 2011

Right. I'm wondering if they would make a difference in an in between crash.
Though I guess it's speculation?

I had just never heard that about towels before. I was surprised he recommended it. But he sees fatal crashes all the time.
If it's really important I wonder why more carseats don't just have squishier head support for side-impact.

Pixels · Sep 21, 2011

EPS foam is what bike helmets are made out of. Blankets or whatever are too compressible and don't have the necessary energy absorbing characteristics. Sure, it'll squish, but not do anything to slow down the impact. It will also prevent the EPS foam from doing its job properly. And putting anything under the cover is a recipe for disaster.

If you're actually hitting the carseats, you may be damaging the EPS foam. It's a one-time thing. It squishes once, and doesn't bounce back. Hopefully you're not actually hitting them.

You can't tell anything about the energy absorbing characteristics by touching or even hitting it with your hand. Anything that feels soft to your hand will squish down to nothing and not help protect the child in any way.

The truth is, side impacts are very difficult. Difficult for the body to take forces sideways, and also difficult to restrain the body. The body can best take forces against the back. Next best is along the front (about half the force the body can take against the back).

NannyMom · Sep 21, 2011

EPS foam is good. It absorbs energy that would otherwise be absorbed by the baby's head. Maybe baby wasn't properly restrained? Maybe the seat wasn't installed properly? Maybe it was just an unsurvivable crash?

carseatcoach · Sep 21, 2011

The EPS foam actually absorbs energy: it's not meant to be cushy.

Nothing should go under the cover of the carseat. There's no harm in putting rolled-up receiving blankets next to baby's head, but I can't imagine they would save a kid's life.

LISmama810 · Sep 21, 2011

Comfort-foam-type stuff is for comfort. EPS foam is for protection. It feels hard if you hit it with your hand, but it absorbs energy, which is why it's used in bike helmets, and is similar to styrofoam used in packaging, etc.

Putting rolled towels under the cover is not something I'd recommend.

bnsnyde · Sep 22, 2011

I mean more of touching the carseats at the side. Not damaging them, for sure.

Just getting a sense of what the side is like.
The air pockets on the Air seats seem like a good idea at face value, but I guess we really don't know?

Pixels · Sep 22, 2011

Dorel says the Air Protect things are as good as or better than EPS foam, but since they're the only ones with test results, we don't really know. It's like so much else in CPS: we have to take the manufacturer's word for it, and either you trust the manufacturer with your child's life, or you don't and you pick a different brand.

arly1983 · Sep 22, 2011

So many others have shared really great information so I will not repeat.

I just wanted to point out that side impact crashes are the most deadly statisticly.

This thread had some great info: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=140176&highlight=side+impact+crashes

Instead of recommending rolled up towels, it would probably be better for him to recommend looking at your car and its crash test ratings and features. I know that the next car I purchase will have side curtain airbags.

Nearly all carseats claim "SIP" protection but there are no standards for testing this and no way to know how effective or what is the most effective car seat. All we know for sure is that EPP/ESP and a harness seat and rfing seats provide some extra measure of protection.

Dmcj13 · Sep 22, 2011

I know we say that no car seat is safer than another, but what about car seats without EPS foam? If there is nothing but plastic to absorb energy how can it be as safe as the seats lined with the foam? I know they all pass the same testing, but surely some do better than others.

Pixels · Sep 22, 2011

Dmcj13 said:
I know we say that no car seat is safer than another, but what about car seats without EPS foam? If there is nothing but plastic to absorb energy how can it be as safe as the seats lined with the foam? I know they all pass the same testing, but surely some do better than others.

Well, this thread is talking specifically about side impact crashes, and there are no tests for side impact. Some manufacturers may run their own testing, but we don't know what standard, if any, they hold their seats to. Also, there are no child side impact dummies, so the manufacturers can't even gather real data to know how their seats perform.

The only standardized test is the frontal impact. For that, the safety standard is presumably set such that any seat that passes the test will keep the child safe in all but the most severe crashes. The people who wrote the standard know a lot more about how much force the body can take than I do.

joolsplus3 · Sep 22, 2011

NannyMom said:
EPS foam is good. It absorbs energy that would otherwise be absorbed by the baby's head. Maybe baby wasn't properly restrained? Maybe the seat wasn't installed properly? Maybe it was just an unsurvivable crash?

Given that most carseats are installed or used incorrectly, this would be my first guess...not that EPS isn't good enough, but that chances are as high as 99% that the seat was misused in some way, or the crash was just simply too much for the baby to survive

Jenny · Sep 23, 2011

What Jools said! :yeahthatlove: Cops do not have significant medical training. He is basing that information on what he saw. I doubt he actually witnessed the impact, and there may have been something else that contacted with the infant's head, loose installation allowing greater movement or the g-forces were too much.

When you get information from professionals,consider whether or not they have the correct education to be a credible source. As a healthcare professional this is something that I feel strongly about.(I dont post a lot but wanted to weigh in here)

I go back to the age old example of ice cream sales and drownings both increase in July. Does that mean eating ice cream increases your risk of drowning? No because you can't assign causation from correlation.

Now there may be better materials than EPS foam, but I dont think its terrycloth. Although i have no reliable evidence either way. If I can find any research on best materials, I will be sure to post it. Jenny

acoro · Sep 23, 2011

Jenny said:
I go back to the age old example of ice cream sales and drownings both increase in July. Does that mean eating ice cream increases your risk of drowning? No because you can't assign causation from correlation.
Jenny

:yeahthatlove:

bnsnyde · Sep 23, 2011

It was a tech, actually an instructor too.

And happened to be someone who responds to fatal accidents.

I was just curious if anyone had concerns about head cushioning, etc. and how EPS works.

LISmama810 · Sep 23, 2011

bnsnyde said:
And happened to be someone who responds to fatal accidents.

My husband responds to fatal accidents, too, but he'll tell you it's not always possible to determine exactly why someone died. Obviously sometimes it's very clear, but other times it leaves him scratching his head. In fact, he had one like that the other day. He has a guess about what happened, but honestly, even after a thorough investigation, no one will likely ever know. It's often very hard to tell after the fact because so much can change DURING the crash.

carseatcoach · Sep 23, 2011

bnsnyde said:
It was a tech, actually an instructor too.

A CPST-I who recommends putting towels under the carseat cover and thinks terrycloth will make a difference in a severe crash needs to be reported.

hrice · Sep 23, 2011

carseatcoach said:
A CPST-I who recommends putting towels under the carseat cover and thinks terrycloth will make a difference in a severe crash needs to be reported.

:yeahthatmad:

Kat_Momof3 · Sep 23, 2011

I'm late to the game but want to point out that what saves motorcyclists' brains in crashes? (harder shells and probably a heavier foam, but much more exposure and risk)... foam and plastic...

also, they measure where the forces are going when they crash test... and that's one reason why they started putting foam in carseats... why it is said that blow molded plastic is almost the same performance level as regular plastic lined with eps/epp foam... and so thereby, blow molded plastic WITH eps foam (like your recaros) should be the best possible option.

eps foam is not all soft, but it's not there for comfort... it's to take the forces from a crash.

How good is EPS foam?

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