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  1. #1
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    http://www.toysrus.ca/product/index....eeEnabled=true

    Notice the funny shape at the front of it? Those, my fellow carseat geeks, techs, and parents who are reading this, are plastic pieces that are screwed on to the original shell of the Titan. They raise the front of the shell by about 3.5 to 4" (best guess since I didn't measure,) and are really cheap looking the way they're attached.

    They're a solid plastic - probably more solid than the rest of the shell. And it gives the seat kind of a futuristic looking shape... but it's quite obviously an addition to the seat and not a change in the mold.

    The side of the seat very clearly says that line "MUST" be level with ground when rf'ing. And must is actually capitalized like that despite the rest of the text being normal. So absolutely that line has to be level to the ground no matter what. Now that we're seeing seats which have to pass what amounts to a rebound standard, it is going to matter whether the seat starts out more upright or more reclined and the "standard" advice that more upright with an older age is fine, is something that we can't blanketly give out unless a manufacturer is specifically stating it.

    The titan still has a 30lb rf'ing limit, but I don't know what the limit is on the Titan in the US - it's possible it's only 30lbs down there? I'm still holding out hope for an EFTA with a 35 or 40lb rf'ing limit...

    On the bright side - the expanding numbers of compliant seats with it only being September are very encouraging.
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.


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  4. #2
    Senior Community Member tjham's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    I'm not from Canada so I'm not aware of what this is about, but I am curious.

    What do new seats have to do to be compliant?

    Does that mean stores cannot sell seats that are not compliant after a certain date?

  5. #3
    CPST and ketchup snob ketchupqueen's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    In America the Titan now RF to 35.
    CPST and Mom to Emma, 15, Bridget, 13, Maggie, 11, Katie Sue, 6, Jimmy, born May 2019,
    and Becky, waiting for us as part of our eternal family.
    Our '02 Odyssey, car seats, and seatbelts saved our lives. Now riding in a '13 Odyssey!

  6. #4
    CPS Technician Kat_Shoshin's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Which seats are already compliant here?

    Do we only know they are compliant because they are new and different?
    Home daycare provider sometimes using: Truefit, Maestro, Radians, Graco TB, Chase, Apramo and a Clek. Canadian CRST
    Expecting a surprise someone in Sept 2012.

  7. #5
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Quote Originally Posted by Kat_Shoshin View Post
    Which seats are already compliant here?

    Do we only know they are compliant because they are new and different?
    The new Britax seats with the rectangular booklet style manual, Nautilus with 22lb minimum ff'ing limit, any evenflo with a 22lb minimum ff'ing limit.

    There's no way to truly know - TRU has it marked in their system as "2012" in a field, but unless you know it was previously a 20lb minimum ff'ing and it's now 22lb minimum, there's no easy way to know.

    I know based on what's been clearanced and the changes that they have when new stock comes back in, and the computer reflects some as well. Beyond that, there's no way to know for sure until Januray 1st hits at which time we know everything on shelves will be compliant.
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.


  8. #6
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Quote Originally Posted by tjham View Post
    I'm not from Canada so I'm not aware of what this is about, but I am curious.

    What do new seats have to do to be compliant?

    Does that mean stores cannot sell seats that are not compliant after a certain date?
    Stores cannot sell non-compliant seats as of January 1st 2012.

    New seats are being tested with the hybrid III family of crash test dummies, have to be tested with a lap/shoulder belt (not previously a requirement,) and in the case of rf'ing seats, they all now have to meet a standard that amounts to a rebound standard - it states the dummies head can't cross a certain "plane" on rebound. This standard is the reason for the change to the Titan. Some seats we'll see obvious changes, some we won't.

    The change also has defined child restraint systems as minimum 22lbs and able to walk unassisted, so all seats sold in Canada come January 1st will have 22lb minimum to ff. Those manufacturers who are interested in their seats being used according to standards have included the walking unassisted as a minimum in the manual and on the stickers as well.

    hose who are pushing a loophole in sticker/manual requirements don't yet have walking unassisted on the seats... they apparently haven't figured out the liability involved considering that average walking age for girls is 13 months with the outer range of normal being 18 months - meaning kids could potentially be using the seats in a way that the seat wasn't certified for as long as 6 months. Silly that they care more about what they're forced to do than making sure the parent uses the seat in a way that complies with standards. (sorry for the vent, you can tell my exact opinion on them pushing the loophole - it makes no sense, and yet there's more than one brand doing it.)
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.


  9. #7
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Please clarify for me. I am confused. Although the seats must be compliant to the 22lbs and walking unassisted for ff starting in January-what will the law say? Will it still say must be 20 lbs and one year old? People seem to care what the bare minimum of what the law says and I am curious.

  10. #8
    CPS Technician
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Did anyone ever figure out if the MR65's with late 2010 DOM's are actually compliant? The labelling is, I just am unsure if the testing was done...
    Melissa ~ former CPSAC CRST & Mommy to:
    C (26/02/07, 58lbs) FF in Oobr & 2 HB TB & I (10/05/10, 30lbs & 35.5") FF in a RXT, FRXT & Nauti. Crashed & Retired G1 BV, TB, AOE & Roundabout 55. Mommy's got a '10 Dodge Ram 1500 & Daddy's got a '14 VW Passat.

  11. #9
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Quote Originally Posted by equilibrium View Post
    Please clarify for me. I am confused. Although the seats must be compliant to the 22lbs and walking unassisted for ff starting in January-what will the law say? Will it still say must be 20 lbs and one year old? People seem to care what the bare minimum of what the law says and I am curious.
    Depends on your province. Since provincial law across Canada includes proper use, it will mean 22lbs for the seats which are 22lbs. For the provinces which include 20lbs as part of their law, they should technically have to revise it since no seat will be able to be purchased with a 20lb ff'ing minimum. Given the proper use part though, a parent who turned a child ff'ing at 20lbs in a 22lb seat could most definitely be ticketed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mam521 View Post
    Did anyone ever figure out if the MR65's with late 2010 DOM's are actually compliant? The labelling is, I just am unsure if the testing was done...
    My suspicion is that it's not compliant Melissa, but I'm not totally sure on that - the only way to find out for sure is to call Graco and ask them...
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.


  12. #10
    Moderator - CPST Instructor Pixelated's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Quote Originally Posted by snowbird25ca View Post
    Those who are pushing a loophole in sticker/manual requirements don't yet have walking unassisted on the seats... they apparently haven't figured out the liability involved considering that average walking age for girls is 13 months with the outer range of normal being 18 months - meaning kids could potentially be using the seats in a way that the seat wasn't certified for as long as 6 months. Silly that they care more about what they're forced to do than making sure the parent uses the seat in a way that complies with standards. (sorry for the vent, you can tell my exact opinion on them pushing the loophole - it makes no sense, and yet there's more than one brand doing it.)
    What exactly is the loophole? Can you say which brands? It would be good to know, to keep an eye out for that. What would I say to parents if they question it? And what you're saying is that parents would put a 1 year, 22lb child in forward facing but if s/he's not walking until 18 months then they've spent that 6 months using the seat 'incorrectly' / against the new standards?

    And "The Law" is a bit of a misnomer when talking about when to turn FF, as it will depend entirely on what seat a parent is using? If you're in a 1 and 20 province and using an older seat you're good to go at 1 and 20. But if you're in a 1 and 20 province using a brand new 2012 compliant seat then you wait until 22lbs and walking.

    Agh! My brain hurts!

    How confident are you that retailers will actually pull non-compliant seats off the shelves at midnight on Dec.31st? I imagine big stores like BRU would be pretty on the ball with that, but what about smaller retailers? I think perhaps I need to plan a January 2nd tour of all stores selling car seats in my area just to check

  13. #11
    Forum Ambassador TechnoGranola's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Quote Originally Posted by equilibrium View Post
    Please clarify for me. I am confused. Although the seats must be compliant to the 22lbs and walking unassisted for ff starting in January-what will the law say? Will it still say must be 20 lbs and one year old? People seem to care what the bare minimum of what the law says and I am curious.
    I'm guessing your talking about the law in B.C. which does state one year old IIRC. For clarification for others reading, there are more provinces that do NOT specify an age, than there are that do; many just have a weight (20# which I suppose should be changing to 22#/10kg in January) which coincides with the federal regulations. Federally, this is what's being changed for the weight:

    An increase in the maximum allowable weight limit of an occupant in an infant seat (CMVSS 213.1) from 9 kg to 10 kg and adding the developmental guideline of walking unassisted.
    This definition has never included an age. Quote taken from http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/re...h138e-6190.htm
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  14. #12
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    We were at TRU today, and dd thought the Graco Snugride 35 looked different on the base, too. Wonder if it has also been redesigned?

  15. #13
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Pixelated - I'm pretty confident that retailers are going to be sure non-compliant seats are pulled by January 1st. There was a letter sent to all retailers and car seat manufacturers and other interested parties detailing the hazardous products act in relation to child restraints, and both the sale and advertisement of non-compliant products is prohibited.

    While enforcement personnel is low, you can be pretty sure that bigger retailers will be watched and I doubt that any store wants the publicity of being in trouble over violating federal law over selling car seats that weren't legal to sell.

    I know at my store anything non compliant even so far as displays go, will be pulled from floor end of December, but I've seen a lot of seats getting replaced already and at the current rate, I don't think there will actually be any stock to return at the end of the year and supply should be ok. Maybe reduced selection for a bit depending on stock levels, but there will be seats available for purchase anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by npl View Post
    We were at TRU today, and dd thought the Graco Snugride 35 looked different on the base, too. Wonder if it has also been redesigned?
    It hasn't been redesigned yet - or if it has, the stock isn't in store yet at any rate.
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.


  16. #14
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelated View Post
    What exactly is the loophole? Can you say which brands? It would be good to know, to keep an eye out for that. What would I say to parents if they question it? And what you're saying is that parents would put a 1 year, 22lb child in forward facing but if s/he's not walking until 18 months then they've spent that 6 months using the seat 'incorrectly' / against the new standards?

    And "The Law" is a bit of a misnomer when talking about when to turn FF, as it will depend entirely on what seat a parent is using? If you're in a 1 and 20 province and using an older seat you're good to go at 1 and 20. But if you're in a 1 and 20 province using a brand new 2012 compliant seat then you wait until 22lbs and walking.

    Agh! My brain hurts!

    How confident are you that retailers will actually pull non-compliant seats off the shelves at midnight on Dec.31st? I imagine big stores like BRU would be pretty on the ball with that, but what about smaller retailers? I think perhaps I need to plan a January 2nd tour of all stores selling car seats in my area just to check
    Sorry, I forgot to answer your first 2 questions in my reply. You're exactly right about how using an old seat vs. a new seat could affect what the law is in your province. In Alberta, for example, our law is that children who are under 6 yrs old OR under 40lbs, must be properly restrained in a certified restraint system that is appropriate for them. So this already has a mix of minimum 20 and minimum 22lb legal minimums to turn ff'ing. 1 yr of age is rarely enforced in Alberta since most techs at roadside checks don't know what seats have 1yr age minimum and what seats don't.

    As for how the walking unassisted will play in to law enforcement, I really honestly don't know. You're right though, that the parent who puts their not-yet-walking-unassisted-child ff'ing as 1yr old is using the seat in an orientation that doesn't meet standards.

    As for what to tell parents? Well - I haven't had that conversation with enough people yet to have a succinct explanation. (Even for experienced techs, it sometimes takes a few times of explaining something new to figure out the easiest and clearest way to explain something to a parent in a way that makes sense to them and doesn't create confusion.)

    I believe that the approach I would take with parents is that Transport Canada has defined child restraint systems as being designed for children who are between 10 and 30kg and who are able to walk unassisted. Then I would simply tell the parent that you're not sure why the manufacturer didn't include the walking unassisted in the manual, but that they need to wait until their child is able to walk unassisted before turning ff'ing as that is what the standards state. If a parent questions further, you can say that discussion is ongoing with the manufacturers between TC and the manufacturers, but the parent needs to follow the minimums of the standards even if the manufacturer has neglected to include it in the current version of the manual. I'm not sure that anything more could be said that is both clear and fully accurate.

    And about the brands - well, that's another question I can't answer fully. I think Graco tried with the Nautilus, but messed up and put sitting unassisted instead of walking unassisted. Evenflo and Diono have no mention of it. Britax states walking unassisted on the labels and manuals. Cosco/Dorel don't have any compliant infant/child or infant/child/booster seats in Canada yet so far as I know, so we'll have to wait and see on that one.

    The loophole you asked about, is that while the standard change redefined "child" restraint systems - there wasn't anything changed in regards to the manual/label requirement stating that the wording of "walking unassisted" must be listed in the manual. And apparently it not being "mandatory wording" is reason enough for some manufacturers to have neglected to include it.

    (And yes, I do consider it neglect. They are responsible for giving parents the information required to use the seat so that it meets standards, and failing to give the parent the information needed to make sure that the seat is used according to standards is neglect in my honest opinion. It may sound harsh, but I am really irked about the whole "not required so we haven't done it" thing.)
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.



  17. #15
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Any way to know if any current seats are compliant? Thinking mostly of those $99 TF seats at TRU, but also about any other sales I might see.
    The mommy guilt part of me feels like it would be wrong to buy a seat that I know isn't compliant.

  18. #16
    CPS Technician tam_shops's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    I know the Nautilus that (our) Superstore was clearing out last week was not compliant. The ones at (our) Candian Tire now has on sale also not compliant. Both were made in 2010 and have 20FF min.

    My guess is ALL seats clearing out at rock bottom prices are not 2012 compliant, that is why they are being cleared out before they can not be sold.

    I just bought a 2010 Nautilus for a spare, never occurred to me to feel guilty about it. I have no plan (or child) to FF before 22# and walking and wouldn't do it anyway.

    I *thought* the crash testing changes were minimal and not worth getting worked up about and that they were more involved for the booster seats? Either way, I'm happier w/ harnessed in an 2010 Nautilus than using a booster for my just #40 small/thin 5yo, and certainly wouldn't have spent $200+ for a spare seat, though guess I could have waiting for a 2012 Maestro...I hope I have nothing to feel guilty about! LOL

    tam

  19. #17
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Tam - if it's mostly a booster issue, rather than a rf issue, then I guess there isn't much difference between the old a new seats. Then again, I'm not about to replace booster seats for my older kids, because I don't think they are unsafe.
    And yes, I'm guessing dd is close to the new minimum weight for ff, and has been walking for months, but she isn't getting turned ff any time soon if I can help it.
    Does anyone know if the changes will affect rf weight limits? TRU is saying that the Evenflo Triumph seats only rf to 30lb. Is that accurate? Will it change?

  20. #18
    CPS Technician tam_shops's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    npl, Not really a RF issue for me. In my car both my 2 & 5yo are ERF. I (now) have a spare Nautilus that ODS can use. I will (soon) have a spare MA YDS can use FF (30#RF and he's nearly there) b/c ODS will be going into a Frontier in the New Year. Think it'd be over-kill to buy another RN since ODS doesn't have much space in it, though if they were less money, I'd consider it. Thought about a clearance TF myself, but even $100 for #5 seems silly to me...There will *always* be another #5 seat and you have to draw the line somewhere...And, to answer your question, I've heard/read/seen nothing about these new changes improving the RF limits on any of the seats. NO idea why they're like that (Less than the American), I thought it went back to the Fitment requirements, most kids that height/weight must fit, which causes limitations. Though, no idea why the RNs don't have those limitations and the new generation Britax seats also. AND, there is no way a 40# child I've ever seen is going to fit in those seats, so I don't get that either...

    tam

  21. #19
    CPS Technician featherhead's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Quote Originally Posted by npl View Post
    Tam - if it's mostly a booster issue, rather than a rf issue, then I guess there isn't much difference between the old a new seats. Then again, I'm not about to replace booster seats for my older kids, because I don't think they are unsafe.
    And yes, I'm guessing dd is close to the new minimum weight for ff, and has been walking for months, but she isn't getting turned ff any time soon if I can help it.
    Does anyone know if the changes will affect rf weight limits? TRU is saying that the Evenflo Triumph seats only rf to 30lb. Is that accurate? Will it change?
    I emailed Evenflo about that a while back, and the answer I was given was that the rear-facing limits should be changing before the end of the year. I wasn't told what they would be, but it would be great to see 40 or even 35 lbs.

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  23. #20
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: First Evenflo infant/child seat compliant to 2012 standards is in store

    Quote Originally Posted by npl View Post
    Tam - if it's mostly a booster issue, rather than a rf issue, then I guess there isn't much difference between the old a new seats. Then again, I'm not about to replace booster seats for my older kids, because I don't think they are unsafe.
    And yes, I'm guessing dd is close to the new minimum weight for ff, and has been walking for months, but she isn't getting turned ff any time soon if I can help it.
    Does anyone know if the changes will affect rf weight limits? TRU is saying that the Evenflo Triumph seats only rf to 30lb. Is that accurate? Will it change?
    There is potential for it to affect rf weight limits. There has been a change in standards that affects rf'ing seats and has led to some changes in the seats themselves as well as changes in handle positions on the infant seats.

    That being said - it's safe to keep using other seats. Current seats are doing a fine job of protecting kids, so even if we see some models disappear and other models have modifications made to them, the ones that met old standards are still safe to use provided they're not damaged or expired or otherwise unsafe.
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.


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