Child in a horse-drawn buggy?

southpawboston · Jun 22, 2007

i've been on vacation in western NYS. there there are some small amish communities in the region. since their religion dictate what forms of transportation they can use and what type of technology they can use in daily life, this got me wondering about child safety. the other day, there was a young family "driving" a horse-drawn buggy. it was a young dad driving, and a young mom holding a baby in her arms. they were driving "legally", as in they had a rectangular reflector on the rear of the buggy. they were driving on the shoulder of a county hwy with a 55 mph speed limit.

WWYD in this situation? i wonder if their religion forbids use of a carseat (not for any reason other than it is a commercial piece of technology)? if it's not forbidden, how could it be installed in a buggy? a seatbelt would have to be bolted into wood.

solmama · Jun 22, 2007

I don't know if it's forbidden or not. We lived near a large Amish community for awhile and I never saw a child restrained in a buggy. Different sects also have different beliefs, but I cannot image an Amish child in a car seat, just doesn't work for me. I don't know if there are any fatalities from accidents either.

CAEKWILSON · Jun 22, 2007

we live in ohio and there are many amish here, there was a accident the other day where a buggy turned in front of a semi truck, the lady driving the buggy died but her friend and the horses survived. we were there just last week and saw a women with 5 or 6 kids in the buggy with her husband, they were small and she was holding a infant, all those buggys do is splinter in a accident so no kind of safe zone in the buggys..... also i wonder if the amish ever get their eyes checked? that is what i was thinking when that lady turned in front of the semi, her eyes were probably bad.

beebear23 · Jun 23, 2007

Interesting.. In Lancaster, PA once I saw a woman, a young girl and a baby in an Evenflo Discovery in a horse-drawn buggy.. The infant seat was just sitting on the floor of the buggy between the seat and the front(not sure what it's called). I, personally, would have put it more towards the middle and not by the edge...

elle7715 · Jun 23, 2007

I don't think it would be forbidden, but it would be a hard sell! It just doesn't seem like something an Amish family would do. Strap baby into plastic seat, strap onto buggy, etc. That's a good question though. I would use a carseat if it ever came up LOL. You never know when a horse will startle.

Patriot201 · Jun 23, 2007

elle7715 said:
I don't think it would be forbidden, but it would be a hard sell!

:yeahthat:

I don't think it would be forbidden. I don't think...

I think I would still like to have a child strapped into something when moving in a horse-drawn buggy. Like the PP stated, you never know when the horse will startle.

mominabigtruck · Jun 23, 2007

My dh is from a huge amish area in indiana and the few times we have visited his parents there is a park there where the amish frequent. And I saw several infants in really really old infant seats. The kind with just he 3pt harness on the bottom half. Yeah I know it sucks but its still better then nothing I guess.

Victorious4 · Jun 23, 2007

Heh, welcome to my neck of the woods

It's a cultural thing -- since there's no where to install a carseat on a buggy anyway, there isn't really any worry/pressure about the issue: let them hold their babies, because at least they're not moving at high speeds.... I know the other vehicles on the road are a definite cause of concern, but when it is literally like pulling teeth to get many Amish or Menonite families to simply see a doctor very real immediate health concerns, using a carseat in a nonmotorized vehicle isn't exactly at the top of the list of priorities

cheerbop · Jun 23, 2007

We live near the largest Amish community in the country and I have seldom seen an infant, or any child for that matter, in a car seat.
And, there have been many accidents involving Amish buggies over the last few years with many children (and adults) that have died. Some of the drivers of the vehicles that hit them have been charged and a few sent to prison.
I would assume that part of the reason they don't use seats is cost. Also, I would think space is an issue. Many of the families have many children and the buggies aren't very big.
I have been on a few Amish farms. I love the quality of their wood products so much that I had an Amish man make my crib. I couldn't find exactly what I wanted 10 years ago, so I special ordered it from him. It meets and exceeds all safety/health requirements. It is gorgeous!!!!! And, it was much cheaper than anything that looked similar to mine. It is special to me because I designed it exactly how I wanted and it was hand made.
On another note, when I was pregnant with my most recent son, there was an Amish woman that was there at every one of my visits in the last few months. She said that they discovered there might be something wrong this pregnancy (her fifth) so they came to my doc. She delivered a little girl early, a few weeks before my son. My last visit she had the baby with her. She was so tiny and no, no car seat. They even had taken our public transportation system to get to the doc's office.

Victorious4 · Jun 23, 2007

Bah, sorry for the double post @@

my3girls · Jun 23, 2007

I wonder more about when what I see happen quite often here. Local farmers will drive a group of Amish (say 4 or 5) to WalMart. I think they are "required" to "pay" for the trip, say with a bucket of corn. ANYWAY, you can clearly tell no one has on their seatbelts, and once I saw a little 2-3 year old boy staring at me behind him. He was standing up on the seat looking out the back window. Surely if they are riding in modern autos they aren't exempt from safety devices. Oh and I should mention, from the Amish community to WM is about 8 miles, 2 options, gravel roads for 7 miles then 1 mile of blacktop or 1 mile of 55 mph then 7 miles of 70 mph. YAY!

I would guess the ones that are using infant seats on their buggies are just doing it to have somewhere to set the baby, NOT because they think it will save the child's life!

Victorious4 · Jun 23, 2007

my3girls said:
Surely if they are riding in modern autos they aren't exempt from safety devices.

True, in which case I'd probably just leave flyers on the windshield anonymously & call the police -- illegal is as illegal does.... Just because there's a cultural difference doesn't mean they're immune from law enforcement :twocents:

I would guess the ones that are using infant seats on their buggies are just doing it to have somewhere to set the baby, NOT because they think it will save the child's life!

Probably so.

southpawboston · Jun 23, 2007

papooses said:
Heh, welcome to my neck of the woods

i was, literally, in your neck of the woods-- bouncing between ithaca and rochester.

papooses said:
It's a cultural thing -- since there's no where to install a carseat on a buggy anyway, there isn't really any worry/pressure about the issue: let them hold their babies, because at least they're not moving at high speeds.... I know the other vehicles on the road are a definite cause of concern, but when it is literally like pulling teeth to get many Amish or Menonite families to simply see a doctor very real immediate health concerns, using a carseat in a nonmotorized vehicle isn't exactly at the top of the list of priorities

cheerbop said:
I would assume that part of the reason they don't use seats is cost.

yep, these are my thoughts exactly.

SusanMae · Jun 23, 2007

I saw a group of Amish come into a restaurant as we were leaving one night. They had a child in an infant seat. I would think that if nothing else the drivers they use should have some child seats available for them to use, as often times its the driver who gets ticketed or charged, not the parent. Amish are usually law abiding folk--they are not looking to cause a stir, just lead thier life privately.

Susan

keri1292 · Jun 23, 2007

southpawboston said:
i was, literally, in your neck of the woods-- bouncing between ithaca and rochester.

yep, these are my thoughts exactly.

Hey! I'm in Rochester! I didn't realize that anyone was so close. We just moved from Elmira and we spent a lot of time in Ithaca. So natural and crunchy.

We even got a membership to the Children's Sciencenter. It was a good excuse to get out of yucky Elmira. When my husband was promoted we were hoping for Ithaca but, Rochester is wonderful. Then again, we live close to the lake and rarely venture into the city. We're also very AP. Rochester has had the WORST car seat misuse/nonuse that I've seen of the 6 cities/towns we lived in. I found a CPS course in August. Keep your fingers crossed that dh's job and finding a babysitter I trust works out!

bobandjess99 · Jun 23, 2007

there are tons of Amish here, and 2 of the police officers from a neighboring county that is nearly COMPLETELY amish fielded this question.
LEGALLY, you do not have to use a car seat in a buggy.
Hoever, they still DO require the Amish that birth in hospitals or the birth center to have a carseat before leaving. Whether they use it or not after that is questionable. Obviously no one checks about home births.
Technically, if the Amish are riding in a normal vehicle, then they have to follow the laws that apply to all passenger vehicles. They sometimes do, sometimes don't.

teekadog · Jun 23, 2007

You can't forget they have a different faith and belief system... From my talks with the Amish that live in my uncle's PA neighborhood, God will keep them safe. Obviously even among very strong secular groups there are differing opinions, but to enforce carseats on the Amish... couldn't that be seen as being directly confrontational and oppositional to their religious beliefs?

Victorious4 · Jun 23, 2007

keri1292 said:
Hey! I'm in Rochester! I didn't realize that anyone was so close. We just moved from Elmira and we spent a lot of time in Ithaca. So natural and crunchy. We even got a membership to the Children's Sciencenter. It was a good excuse to get out of yucky Elmira. When my husband was promoted we were hoping for Ithaca but, Rochester is wonderful. Then again, we live close to the lake and rarely venture into the city. We're also very AP. Rochester has had the WORST car seat misuse/nonuse that I've seen of the 6 cities/towns we lived in. I found a CPS course in August. Keep your fingers crossed that dh's job and finding a babysitter I trust works out!

I do like the Rochester area -- pretty cool community activities there + API has meetings/playgroups between there & Buffalo

I actually haven't spent time there, though, since Leila was a toddler.... All the best with your course :thumbsup:

UlrikeDG · Jun 23, 2007

I think the bigger issue is simply avoiding high speed roads in a buggy whenever possible. I suspect the buggies themselves are relatively safe vehicles. It's just when you combine them with a hunk of metal hurtling down the road at 55+ MPH that the issues arise. It's not practical to forbid buggies on highways, nor is it reasonable to expect the state to build buggy lanes along side all roads with speed limits above 45 MPH, which frankly, would probably be the best solution.

Victorious4 · Jun 23, 2007

UlrikeDG said:
I think the bigger issue is simply avoiding high speed roads in a buggy whenever possible.

:yeahthat: Too many roads don't even have bike lanes, so I don't see buggy lanes becomming a reality anytime soon, but it's a great idea!

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