CANNOT rear-face Tether without vehicle Manual approving????

lovinwaves · Jun 14, 2007

3 CPS Instructors informed me today that I cannot rear-face tether any approved seat UNLESS the vehicle's owner manual specifically says I can.

I am baffled??? So have we been giving the wrong information?

She said the owner's manual supersedes anything. And, that whatever I have "read" on the internet is incorrect (basically car-seat.org and all of you all).

She said she has only seen one manual where it allowed a rear-face tether, and that was to the back of the seats leg.

arly1983 · Jun 14, 2007

Before I even thought of doing anything I would call Honda.

Simplysomething · Jun 14, 2007

I recall discussion about something like that when another poster took her tech classes. Was it papooses? Maybe? Or Scatterbunny? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
I'm sure I'm not dreaming it up. lol

Niea · Jun 14, 2007

lovinwaves said:
I wanted to add that she was curious why I wanted to use the rear-facing tether on my Britax's. She said the seats are fine without them, and I said I know, but they are safer with it tethered. She ask "How are the safer?" I said in side impact collisions they are better, to which she replied "but there is NO side impact crashing so how do we know that??" I didn't know how to respond to that

The answer is that in many European countries do side-impact collisions. Physics is universal the world over. . .doesn't matter if the test was done in the US or Germany, it's gonna come out the same, ya know? Just because these tests aren't mandated in the US doesn't make the outcomes any less valid.

wondering1 · Jun 14, 2007

Neither one of my car manuals said anything about car seats. They are older cars.

Jeanum · Jun 14, 2007

Here's a blurb from the carseat.org Technical Encyclopedia entry on RF tethering, where the potential benefits in frontal, side, and rear impact crashes are specifically mentioned:

The restraint models on which the rear-facing tether is offered, however, can accommodate a child up to 33 lb rear facing, and for this usage the limit on rebound or rear-impact motion may be beneficial. Although crash experience indicates that rebound of infant-only restraints in frontal impacts does not cause serious injury, similar movement of a rear-facing restraint can also occur during a severe rear impact or offset rear impact, which can result in serious injury or death if the infant's head hits the rear door pillar of a sedan, the rear window of a pickup, or some other hard surface. As larger and heavier infants are carried rear-facing, the chance of an infant's head hitting a hard part of the vehicle is greater. Tethering a rear-facing convertible CR to the floor can reduce the risk of head and facial injuries in rear and side crashes by reducing head excursion.

ThreeBeans · Jun 14, 2007

for some reason i am extremely irked by your story

skaterbabs · Jun 14, 2007

This is the same stance that Canadian techs are taught. That said, honestly I'd let it go in one ear and out the other because this is NOT a Safe Kids stance or a NHTSA stance and I do not believe it's part of the new curriculum either because while I went through the old one, we were encouraged to tether every seat that had the ability to do so whenever possible.

lovinwaves · Jun 14, 2007

I asked her if it was part of the new curriculum and she said NO, that it is the way it's always been...that the vehicle owner's manual always trumps everything.....so unless the vehicle owner's manual says you can do it, you can't.

But, what owner's manual is going to say "Yes, you may place your rear-facing tether on the Flip Down Tray in your Honda Odyssey", ya know?

I am soooo confused!!!

CDNTech · Jun 14, 2007

I think that's crazy logic... vehicle manufacturer's are still trying to wrap their brain around how to properly explain to owners how to use LATCH... you think they're honestly going to start giving advice to owner's on how to tether their seat RF when only two companies allow you to do that?

I also agree that the laws of physics do not change no matter what country you're in.

I understand how you feel though... it was like banging my head against a brick wall in the first class I took.

The class I took this week was amazing... it was nice to get probably the only instructor in Canada that totally agreed with RF tethering.

scatterbunny · Jun 14, 2007

Ask the instructors if they have a copy of the 2007 LATCH manual.

Chapter 5, page 53, says this:

Tethering a Rear-Facing CR

The concept of tethering a rear-facing child restraint is fairly new in the U.S. and Canada. It has been used in Sweden and Australia/New Zealand for many years.

A few U.S.-made child restraint models today, almost all Britax, are designed for a rear-facing tether.

Also this, same page:

The benefit of a rear-facing tether is primarily for stabilizing the seat. In a crash, its effect is not likely to be as dramatic as a tether used on a forward-facing CR. Therefore, this type of installation is not part of the federal CR standard.

It goes on to say:

Benefits of the two methods:

Tethering the CR to the rear of the vehicle will reduce forward motion of the restraint during impact. This is more convenient to do with a V-shaped tether strap than a single strap routed directly over the child's head. Recent research has shown that this method can reduce forces acting on the child in a rear-end or frontal crash better than the Swedish method.

Tethering toward the front of the vehicle helps to creat a tight installation and to adjust the recline angle. It may increase side-to-side stability and would limit rebound (toward the back) in a frontal impact and rearward rotation in a rear impact.

On the subject of vehicle owner's manuals not "allowing" RF tethering, same chapter, page 54:

Finding an anchor for a rear-facing restraint

Vehicle owner's manuals generally do not provide information about how to tether rear-facing CRs in their vehicles because this method is not included in the federal standard. A rear-facing CR tethered toward the rear of the vehicle uses the same anchor as a forward-facing CR. However, most of the CRs designed for rear-tether use in the U.S. are tethered under the seat ahead. Finding an anchor location there can be more complicated.

Check the instructions of the child restraints that use this tethering method for recommended anchors. Britax allows use of various parts of the under-seat structure to be used to "create an anchor point." Safeline Kids required the use of anchor points designated by the vehicle manufacturer.

For a rear-facing CR to be tethered under the seat ahead, the anchor is almost always very different from those for forward-facing CRs. In a few vehicles (e.g., Ford Windstar, Expedition), there is an anchor point or anchor hardware on the underside of the front passenger seat frame.

It goes on to give Britax-specific suggestions, but let your instructor read it all and then maybe throw in the line about physics being the same regardless of the country you're in, so testing done in Sweden is still relevant here.

TXDani · Jun 14, 2007

In my tech class we were definitely taught to rf tether with Britax seats and we were not instructed to read the vehicle manual to make sure it was okay. We were shown how to find an appropriate spot and how to use the D-ring but that is it. I would NOT remove your rf'ing tethers...I would compile a nice letter (e-mail) with your facts and encourage these techs to educate themselves better so they don't send kids out of their checks less safe by undoing a rf'ing tether.

Victorious4 · Jun 14, 2007

I had a similar situation during my training -- they actually wanted written approval. THAT would never happen. However!

They've changed their advice on this issue: during the CPST update workshop in the Eastern Regional conference that I just returned from they encouraged RF tethering when allowed by the *carseat* manufacturer + when there is a nonmovable part of the vehicle to secure it to as per the carseat manual ... meaning, towards the front of the vehicle + to a vehicle seat leg or bar like the Swedish method (not to the same seat the carseat is installed on, not up towards the roof or toward the rear of the vehicle like the Australian method). Basically, the advice you recieved goes against curriculum & I suggest you ask these instructors where they find this in the curriculum -- they won't find it in the current curriculum & my state coordinator told me at the time that it wasn't in the old curriculum either, but if they keep urging you on this, I'd inform your state coordinator (s/he may simply add it to the list of issues to review during meeting). In fact, at a recent Lifesavers conference, although not 2007, there was a video showing that carseat which can be & are tethered RF result in less force upon the dummy's neck. I'm awaiting a file of this video from Charles Hirata who I believe won 2 awards at the 2007 Lifesavers.

JaRylan · Jun 14, 2007

skaterbabscpst said:
This is the same stance that Canadian techs are taught. That said, honestly I'd let it go in one ear and out the other because this is NOT a Safe Kids stance or a NHTSA stance and I do not believe it's part of the new curriculum either because while I went through the old one, we were encouraged to tether every seat that had the ability to do so whenever possible.

Any time i asked about rf tethering in my class (Canada) the techs responded that rf tethering was a just a different way to "ride out the crash". Then at the check that we had last Friday there was a lady who came in with a MA rf but not tethered and again the same explanation was given. They did ask me if I knew where to tether the seat (I knew *what* to say but not *how* to find one and tether it with confidence). I recommended that she call Britax and it was on the tip of my tongue to suggest this site but with my instructor sitting there I didn't. Turns out it was actually a new poster on here who had pm'd me a few days before, but we didn't realize who each other was until we got back on the internet, lol.

lovemyfamily · Jun 14, 2007

It really doesn't even make sense. So many vehicles have tethers anchor points behind the drivers and passenger seats, I have a 2001 GMC Yukon XL that has one at the base of the drivers seat, for a 2nd row RF restraint. I am almost positive my DH's 1999 Dodge Ram has one as well. If the manufacturers are putting them in the vehicles, why wouldn't it be the right thing to do?

lovinwaves · Jun 14, 2007

lovemyfamily said:
It really doesn't even make sense. So many vehicles have tethers anchor points behind the drivers and passenger seats, I have a 2001 GMC Yukon XL that has one at the base of the drivers seat, for a 2nd row RF restraint. I am almost positive my DH's 1999 Dodge Ram has one as well. If the manufacturers are putting them in the vehicles, why wouldn't it be the right thing to do?

She (the instructor) is saying to NOT use the rear-facing tether on the vehicle UNLESS the vehicle's owner manual says you can. So in your GMC Yukon does it say somewhere in your owner's manual you can tether a rear-facing seat there?

Victorious4 · Jun 14, 2007

See, mine were saying not even to use approved/designated tether anchor points unless the vehicle manufacturer specifically stated that it was for RF as well as FF

Some newer vehicles like the Ford Edge are not including acceptable RF tether anchorage locations: nothing to wrap the D-ring around & I couldn't find the kind of tether hook that's in my Freestar *SIGH*

lovemyfamily · Jun 14, 2007

lovinwaves said:
She (the instructor) is saying to NOT use the rear-facing tether on the vehicle UNLESS the vehicle's owner manual says you can. So in your GMC Yukon does it say somewhere in your owner's manual you can tether a rear-facing seat there?

I am stepping out to get the manual now. BRB to post an answer to your question.

lovemyfamily · Jun 14, 2007

papooses said:
See, mine were saying not even to use approved/designated tether anchor points unless the vehicle manufacturer specifically stated that it was for RF as well as FF Some newer vehicles like the Ford Edge are not including acceptable RF tether anchorage locations: nothing to wrap the D-ring around & I couldn't find the kind of tether hook that's in my Freestar *SIGH*

How in the world would it be for forward facing if it is at the base of the drivers or passenger seats? That is wacko!

lovinwaves · Jun 14, 2007

lovemyfamily said:
I am stepping out to get the manual now. BRB to post an answer to your question.

Ok, cool thanks!! :thanx!:

CANNOT rear-face Tether without vehicle Manual approving????

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