Don't leave Chaperone handle up, and more

bnsnyde · Aug 18, 2011

A few points for carseat discussion...because it's fun and informative! I am learning great things from my awesome tech class, but some points are new to me and I wonder how to handle them. Some I am not even sure I agree with. So, food for thought...

1. Don't leave the Chaperone or any other infant handle up, even if it's "allowed." Allowed does not mean best practice, and a piece of plastic that a child's head can smack is not ideal. Also remove the sun canopy after 6 mos., when yon can use sunblock. It too has hard plastic and would be best left off. (I guess I'm guilty. My own Chaperone rides with the handle up b/c that's how it puzzles next to my Advocate, and allows for tall dad to sit in front). And I never even thought of removing the shade, nor would I want to in cold winter. Hmmmm...
2. Use the TOP slot for a FF convertible b/c that one is reinforced. Even if the manual allows lower slots, use the very top only. The harness has ripped through the shell before. (Scary. I'd just never heard this about ignoring other slots).
3. Don't let Radian straps go below the shoulder, no matter what the manual says.
4. And if a 2-year-old comes to a check FF? Nobody seemed to think this was a major issue. So, what to do. Even age 3, if he/she will clearly fit RF in the seat, do you mention that? I mean, we just watched enough crash videos to scare anybody out of FF if the means to RF exist!

Oh, and apparently the booster law in IL changed to up to 80 lbs (or 8). and the 4 ft. 9 is no more. Height isn't really the "thing" anymore the law goes by. Seems a bit odd, but that's the change.

Jessica61624 · Aug 18, 2011

I won't use the Radian after my kids shoulders are above the top slots. I don't think the sun shade is an issue with.

monica-m · Aug 18, 2011

Numbers 1 and 2 were not taught in my class. If the manufacturer says it is okay, then it is okay. I'm not putting sunblock on a baby instead of using the canopy. If it came in the box with the seat, it is approved for use. As far as the harness slots, there are ones that are reinforced for forward facing use and they should have showed you how to determine which ones those are by looking at the back of the seat. The top slot is not the only reinforced slot in most convertible seats. In combination seats, all harness slots are reinforced for FF harness use. As far as number 3, again, the manufacturer says its okay and that is a parental/caregiver decision to be made.

Genevieve · Aug 18, 2011

I am perfectly comfortable using an infant seat with the handle "up", as long as it's ok by the manufacturer.

The "only use the top slots when FF" seems like an old rule that your instructors have held onto. If I recall correctly, older seats did need to have the harness on highest setting when FF because they were the only ones reinforced. That is no longer the case, and any slot is fine as long as it's approved by the manufacturer for whatever direction the child restraint is facing.

I am not comfortable using the radian above the top slots for my own children, even though it's been okayed by SK. If a parent wanted to make that choice for their child, I wouldn't try to talk them out of it.

When I have a 2 year old come in FF that *could* RF in the seat they have (or a child of any age), I generally mention the option, tell why it's safer, and see how the parent reacts. If they don't seem open to the idea, I simply move forward with correct FF installation.

Carrie_R · Aug 18, 2011

Interesting. I always prefer to leave my handles up, after hearing that Graco engineers do it with their kids' seats. It acts as a last minute ARB bar.

The top slots are reinforced the same as the other FF-ok slots, aren't they? If you look at the back of, say, the Scenera?

So at what age DO they want you to bring up ERF? Only if under two? (It's circumstantial, of course, but I find in practice that's usually what happens, at least at public checks. Private is a different story.)

Not sure I agree with all of those points, honestly...

wendytthomas · Aug 18, 2011

Ummm, your tech class is far from awesome, sorry.

Some handles are REQUIRED to be up? What then? A tightly harnessed child's head will never come near the handle. Graco engineers like to leave the handle up as anti-rebound, though it's not an official stance of the seat. If it's tested that way it passes that way.

The top slot only for forward facing? Have your instructors touched a seat in the past 10 years??? Seriously, because that's when that went out of date. Even the seats Piper had as a baby nine years ago had more than one reinforced slot. That was going out of date then.

There's no harm in using the canopy. I'd throw it at a kid's head, it won't hurt them in a crash.

I mention that SK allows the top slots to be below the shoulders, but also mention that they're the only ones in the US, and most kids don't find it comfortable (and it doesn't matter in the XTSL anyway, and that's what most people here buy).

A two year old forward facing, I would mention that they still fit rear facing and then they'd be safer that way, but leave it up to the parents.

Question everything your instructors say. They sound like out of date idiots. Sorry!!

Wendy

Phineasmama · Aug 18, 2011

Yikes, some of that stuff is...special.

My infant seat says the handle MUST be up and I feel more comfortable with it that way since it helps with rebound.

violets_mommy · Aug 18, 2011

wendytthomas said:
Ummm, your tech class is far from awesome, sorry.

Some handles are REQUIRED to be up? What then? A tightly harnessed child's head will never come near the handle. Graco engineers like to leave the handle up as anti-rebound, though it's not an official stance of the seat. If it's tested that way it passes that way.

The top slot only for forward facing? Have your instructors touched a seat in the past 10 years??? Seriously, because that's when that went out of date. Even the seats Piper had as a baby nine years ago had more than one reinforced slot. That was going out of date then.

There's no harm in using the canopy. I'd throw it at a kid's head, it won't hurt them in a crash.

I mention that SK allows the top slots to be below the shoulders, but also mention that they're the only ones in the US, and most kids don't find it comfortable (and it doesn't matter in the XTSL anyway, and that's what most people here buy).

A two year old forward facing, I would mention that they still fit rear facing and then they'd be safer that way, but leave it up to the parents.

Question everything your instructors say. They sound like out of date idiots. Sorry!!

Wendy

I agree with all of this.

monica-m · Aug 18, 2011

bnsnyde said:
Oh, and apparently the booster law in IL changed to up to 80 lbs (or 8). and the 4 ft. 9 is no more. Height isn't really the "thing" anymore the law goes by. Seems a bit odd, but that's the change.

I missed this part. That is absolutely false and not at all in line with what the NHTSA or anyone else says. It's all about hight. A 4' 80# kid is not going to fit properly in the seat belt. Extra weight is not going to keep the seat belt on their hip bones, a booster seat will do that. I am about to have this very battle with some family members when a particular kiddo turns 8. Without the proper height, a child will not pass the 5 step test and will still need a booster. You instructors are WAY out of date with their information.

wendytthomas · Aug 18, 2011

monica-m said:
I missed this part. That is absolutely false and not at all in line with what the NHTSA or anyone else says. It's all about hight. A 4' 80# kid is not going to fit properly in the seat belt. Extra weight is not going to keep the seat belt on their hip bones, a booster seat will do that. I am about to have this very battle with some family members when a particular kiddo turns 8. Without the proper height, a child will not pass the 5 step test and will still need a booster. You instructors are WAY out of date with their information.

I missed that part too. NC is 8 or 80 as well. A lot of states are age/weight for law. Law is never best practice, so I don't much care what it says.

Wendy

luckyclov · Aug 18, 2011

If the manufacturer of the CR says it's OK, then it's OK.

If you don't want to leave the handle up on your Chaperone/KeyFit/whatever, when it's allowed by the respective manufacturers, then don't (doesn't leaving the handle up aide as an anti-rebound method?).

If you don't want to use the Radian FF once the top harness slot has fallen below the shoulders, then don't (and, I admit, *I* don't).

But to claim "best practice" is to go against what the manufacturer has specifically stated, in print, is OK - you know, the manufacturer who actually PERFORMED the testing - isn't exactly, well, best practice, IMO.

As far as a 2-year old FF'ing...I'll just co-sign this:

A two year old forward facing, I would mention that they still fit rear facing and then they'd be safer that way, but leave it up to the parents.

creideamh · Aug 18, 2011

This whole thing makes me nervous. I've learnt so much on here (including the opposite of the points your instructors made.) I'm taking my CPST class next week and don't keep my mouth shut too easily... yikes.

wendytthomas · Aug 18, 2011

creideamh said:
This whole thing makes me nervous. I've learnt so much on here (including the opposite of the points your instructors made.) I'm taking my CPST class next week and don't keep my mouth shut too easily... yikes.

That was me.

One instructor thought it was funny, one thought it was good (I still refer people to her), and two hated me. But guess what, they didn't need to like me. I knew my stuff and passed the class.

So don't sweat it. 99% of what I need to know about being a tech I learned here. The other 1%, I don't use with parents.

Wendy

misstj9 · Aug 18, 2011

monica-m said:
I missed this part. That is absolutely false and not at all in line with what the NHTSA or anyone else says. It's all about hight. A 4' 80# kid is not going to fit properly in the seat belt. Extra weight is not going to keep the seat belt on their hip bones, a booster seat will do that. I am about to have this very battle with some family members when a particular kiddo turns 8. Without the proper height, a child will not pass the 5 step test and will still need a booster. You instructors are WAY out of date with their information.

I totally agree with your point here, a 80 pound 4ft tall kid won't 5 step. But, that's the way the law is written as far as I know, and as it was taught at my CPS class. And when I look on the IIHS website, it's more of the same across the country. I count 17 states that mention 57 inches. (And 1 that mentions 50 inches!!!): http://www.iihs.org/laws/childrestraint.aspx

I agree, the wording sucks, and my instructor 2 months ago did talk about how to test a child for seatbelt fit (he didn't use the "5 step test" wording) but he did talk about it. But the law in IL is 8 yrs/80 lbs, with no mention of height.... it sucks!

bnsnyde · Aug 18, 2011

The points I mentioned were ones that caused me to pause (and consider jumping out of my seat sometimes). I'm very up-to-date with these threads, so when I heard stuff I never heard before, I figured I'd check! (And while I wouldn't use the SK over the slots, but I did point out it was in the manual.)

Most of the other points in class are in line with what I've learned here.
And, there is some outdated info. in class and I feel, as a parent and thread-reader, that I'm getting the most up to date stuff online.

Thanks for the discussions! The more info, the better.

creideamh · Aug 18, 2011

wendytthomas said:
That was me. One instructor thought it was funny, one thought it was good (I still refer people to her), and two hated me. But guess what, they didn't need to like me. I knew my stuff and passed the class.

So don't sweat it. 99% of what I need to know about being a tech I learned here. The other 1%, I don't use with parents.

Wendy

That's a relief! I'm hoping the main one is cool... she sent an email a couple weeks ago about the class and all and if we had any questions, to email her because she was in Orlando at the Kidz in Motion conference. :thumbsup:

wendytthomas · Aug 18, 2011

Feel free to ask about those points in class.

"But I'd heard that some infant seats require the handle up, and that Graco engineers prefer them up for their own children. If the carseat allows it, and it's passed testing that way, why not use it with the handle up?" Put it into their laps to prove to you why they're making these statements.

"This seat allows the top three positions for forward facing, and they're all reinforced. Why is the top slot better than one that fits the child more snugly?"

Wendy

honeydew · Aug 18, 2011

Wow, I had my tech course at the beginning of the month and my instructors said almost the opposite of what yours are saying!

1) They identified which seats require the handle up, which allow it in certain positions, and which require it down. We even got a print-out spreadsheet for reference! As always, they stated to follow the manual in every case. They mentioned nothing about canopies, just the standard "if it didn't come with the seat, don't use it".

2) They did discuss reinforced slots for FF, and said if the manual isn't present, use the top slot on a convertible. However, they noted this is an older recommendation and most (all?) new seats have multiple sets of slots for FF.

3) We didn't discuss the Radian, but were taught to follow the manual in every case.

4) We were told to recommend best practice, but it's ultimately the parent's decision. I would absolutely recommend RF for a 2 year old who would still fit.

VoodooChile · Aug 18, 2011

bnsnyde said:
2. Use the TOP slot for a FF convertible b/c that one is reinforced. Even if the manual allows lower slots, use the very top only. The harness has ripped through the shell before. (Scary. I'd just never heard this about ignoring other slots).

I had a tech once tell me that ALL seats MUST use the bottom slots for rf, and the TOP slots for ff. Honest-to-goodness, that's what he said. I even asked him to repeat it b/c I was sure I must have misunderstood. So he put in my MA and my mom's Scenera for my then-20 month dd with the harness in the very bottom slots (which, especially in the Scenera were frighteningly low, like at the small of her back). He had some other questionable advice too--insisted she had to be at a 45 degree angle in both seats, used a locking clip on my MA. So I came here to ask, and I remember someone asking (about the harness slot thing) that they wondered what he thought all those other slots were for. He was great with ERF and my rf tether, but the harness thing really blew me away!

KaiLing · Aug 18, 2011

wendytthomas said:
That was me. One instructor thought it was funny, one thought it was good (I still refer people to her), and two hated me. But guess what, they didn't need to like me. I knew my stuff and passed the class.

Wendy

Me too (three). I *mostly* kept my big annoying mouth shut. One instructor doesn't want to kill me, two never want to see me again. The one who tolerated me said "I don't think I taught you anything..." at the end. Everyone thought I was crazy to take the class as a volunteer and then told me I was crazy to be willing to do private checks, even for my friends.

More than once, I quietly went and pulled up the AAP wording on my ipod to show the other students after the instructors repeatedly made reference to "RF *up to* the age of 2". I just said "24 months minimum" over and over again. I figured the teachers weren't going to listen to a know-it-all, but at least I could get the other students thinking about these things. One other student had a 10 month old and I jabbered on at him about MyRides and 2 year olds being more comfortable RF and so on. In June the curriculum did not reflect the RF wording on the NHTSA or AAP websites. I hope that will change: all they have to do is copy it from the internet in that appendix about keeping kids RF longer.

Radians (and once, Radian owners) were ridiculed in my class. Mostly for the "super claw" (actual quote, and kind of funny, and I take the point about most cars not allowing LATCH that high anyway), but also as being unnecessary and difficult. I didn't take much offense. Well, not too much.

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