Cosco Scenera vs Britax Blvd 70 CS for <1yo on airplane

OSLmom

New member
Hi, I have a bit of a conundrum. I flew to Asia with my Graco Snugride 35. I paid for a ticket for my son so that he could travel safely and comfortably in his familiar car seat. It was a nightmare! I will skip details (but will happily vent with little prompting) but we had to be re-routed at the last minute from Air Canada to Cathay Pacific, which does not allow rear facing car seats at all. Period. Something about the Snugride being a "cradle carrier" and "not compatible with airline seats".

Anyway, we are flying back on Singapore Airlines and they also do not allow RF CRS. I contacted them to ask why and they said they follow the UK-CAA recommendations and although the UK-CAA has recently amended their recommendations to allow RF CRS, Singapore Airlines is still reviewing the change and as of now their policy of no RF stands.

We're getting to my question, I promise! My husband is still in the US and will be joining us for the last part of our trip in a couple weeks. We decided he would bring a forward facing car seat with him for DS to use on the way back. We have a Britax Boulevard 70 CS and a Cosco Scenera RF40 at home. (I had DH go to Target over the weekend to get the Scenera.) I thought I would have him bring the Scenera since I didn't want to risk checking the $$$ Blvd. Even though DS is under 1 yr (9.5m), he is a big guy at 21+ lbs and 30+ in. I figured I would rather have him FF on the plane than bounce around in the belly belt (which IMO is completely ineffective), esp since I already paid for him to have his own seat. But I've just downloaded the Scenera manual and it says no FF until 1 yr, 22lbs and 34"! DS fails on all counts. The Blvd just says 20lb and 1 yr for FF, so at least he would be within the weight limit if not the age limit.

Should I still stick with my original plan to have DH check the Scenera and put DS in it FF which will probably still be better than using the belly belt? Or should I have DH check our expensive Blvd and take the risk that it will suffer invisible damage that could potentially endanger DS in the future? What about contacting DHs airlines (United, Air Canada and Cathay Pacific) to see if they will let him gate check the Blvd even though he will be traveling alone to meet us? I understand gate checking is marginally better than regular luggage checking, but I would still worry about invisible damage to the Blvd since that will be our primary carseat once DS outgrows the Snugride. Also DH (very likely) may forget to pick it up at the end of each flight segment. If he checks the Scenera, will it be safe to use after this trip? It's only $50 so I have no problem ditching it just to be safe but I wonder if maybe we can put it in Grandma's car once DS is old/big enough for the CARES harness.

Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't find something similar in previous posts. Or at least, I couldn't figure out what search terms to use.

I would really appreciate any advice. TIA!
 
ADS

KaiLing

New member
OK, I'm not a very experienced tech, but I am a traveling mom. Since I'm new, I'm not comfortable telling you as a professional to do things that aren't legal, so I'm going to rank the options according to what is the most legal, and then what I would do.

1. Technically the first choice here is lap infant. It's legal. You could get a Baby B'air harness, FAA approved (not sure about the other agencies), but not for take off and and landing (though if they're handing out the lap belt you could use that for take off and landing). The Baby B'air would strap your child down to you in the event of turbulence (which is the cause of most minor airplane injuries). If I were traveling and I chose this option I would comfort myself knowing that I am at least protecting against the most common cause of injuries.

2. I think if your kiddo is 21+ lbs my first choice for the seat would be the CARES harness, since it starts at 22 lbs. That's fudging the least on the rules, and a fabric harness is likely to fit a child at the very bottom of the weight limit, as all children hold their weight differently anyway. It's also easier to carry. I might even try to get my kid to eat a lot of cheese prior to flight. Only sort of kidding.

3. Even though it's a pain in the butt, I do agree that a forward facing seat that is rated to 20 lbs but not 1 year old is a better option. Different one year olds are different sizes, but they tested that one with a 20 lbs dummy. If you have to check the Blvd i would put it in its original box (or something like that) with bubble wrap, in an attempt to pack it as close as possible to how it was shipped originally. Or find and buy a used Britax (or something else that is rated at 20 lbs) at home for your husband to bring, knowing that crashed seats perform well in testing, and that airplanes are safer than cars, use it on this one flight and then ditch it.

4. Unless you get your kid up to 22 lbs, the Scenera is, unfortunately, my last choice here, but I agree that it is attractive as a one-time use option.

Those options stated, is there some local car seat option that is allowed on the plane? Can you buy something where you are that is for FF and allowed on the plane?

You're not flying to the US, I assume? I think the FAA regulations are enforced on all US bound flights, so if you're flying to the US you could make a stink. (But apparently the FAA is not funded by the congress right now so all airport inspectors are working on a volunteer basis anyway so I'd be happier not flying to the US for other reasons...)

Maybe that helps? Like I said, I'm new, but I read your post last night and couldn't stop thinking about it.
 

Pixels

New member
OK, I'm not a very experienced tech, but I am a traveling mom. Since I'm new, I'm not comfortable telling you as a professional to do things that aren't legal, so I'm going to rank the options according to what is the most legal, and then what I would do.

1. Technically the first choice here is lap infant. It's legal. You could get a Baby B'air harness, FAA approved (not sure about the other agencies), but not for take off and and landing (though if they're handing out the lap belt you could use that for take off and landing). The Baby B'air would strap your child down to you in the event of turbulence (which is the cause of most minor airplane injuries). If I were traveling and I chose this option I would comfort myself knowing that I am at least protecting against the most common cause of injuries.

The Baby B'Air is NOT FAA approved. It is not allowed on any FAA-controlled flight at any time the seatbelt light is on - takeoff, landing, turbulence, or whenever the pilot feels like it. The only time the B'Air would possibly protect the baby is in case of surprise turbulence, when the seatbelt light was not on.

However, if the flight is FAA controlled, then FAA rules apply across the board and the airline must allow the RFing seat. It's not airline choice, and no airline policy can override FAA rules.
 

KaiLing

New member
The Baby B'Air is NOT FAA approved. It is not allowed on any FAA-controlled flight at any time the seatbelt light is on - takeoff, landing, turbulence, or whenever the pilot feels like it. The only time the B'Air would possibly protect the baby is in case of surprise turbulence, when the seatbelt light was not on.

Holy crap! I just read this: "The FAA changed the existing regulations in early 1996, banning devices other than approved car seats during takeoff, taxi and landing. This FAA rule change DOES NOT prohibit the use of the Baby B'Air® during the cruise portions of the flight." from the Baby B'Air FAQ at http://babybair.com/faq.html .

So you're saying that 'cruise' is only when the fasten seatbelt light is off? I thought 'cruise' meant anything other than taxi, takeoff and landing. Or are you saying that the makers of the Baby B'air are not reporting correctly? I have no experience with this product, just reporting on what I read.

And yes, I realize that the FAA is not involved in this case, but if she's uncomfortable with the belly belt that the non-US airlines hand out, maybe this vest-like Baby B'air would be something she would be more comfortable with? I also assumed that FAA approved for cruise meant it was tested for turbulence, which I realize might be wrong. That's what's behind my suggestion (that and I generally am on FAA flights, so that's what I'm familiar with).
 

Eclipsepearl

New member
Don't buy the Baby B'Air! It's a waste of money. It doesn't "protect" from turbulence. A good quality baby carrier will do the same thing. I also doubt that foreign companies that hand out belly belts will accept that. They usually require that the child go back to the belly belt when turbulence hits and the belly belt will serve the same purpose (probably better) than the B'Air.

Besides, they have really deceptive advertising. When I wrote to point this out, I got a really NASTY reply. Stay away from that company and their products!!!

I'm a former Flight Attendant and I just wanted to point out the the pp was incorrect. FAA rules do NOT apply to companies that fly into the U.S. The only exception is that the FAA is allowed to ground aircraft that aren't "air worthy" and prevent airlines which don't meet FAA standards from flying into the U.S. This really only applies to pilots and airlines and they don't concern rules governing inside the cabin.

Belly belts are dangerous for the child but airlines use them to prevent lap babies from being thrown in the cabin and injuring other passengers.

Can you get a refund on the baby's ticket since you're prevented from using your CRS?
 

KaiLing

New member
Besides, they have really deceptive advertising. When I wrote to point this out, I got a really NASTY reply. Stay away from that company and their products!!!

I'm a former Flight Attendant and I just wanted to point out the the pp was incorrect. FAA rules do NOT apply to companies that fly into the U.S. The only exception is that the FAA is allowed to ground aircraft that aren't "air worthy" and prevent airlines which don't meet FAA standards from flying into the U.S. This really only applies to pilots and airlines and they don't concern rules governing inside the cabin.
?

OK, sounds like they're just lying about the FAA. That's what I get for believing what the company told me on their website! Terrible that they're doing that, and if it were me I'd not use the Baby B'air.

Thanks for clarifying the FAA's jurisdiction. It's confusing! Is this the same when you're leaving from the US? Like, could you install an infant seat RF on Cathay Pacific from LAX to Hong Kong?
 

Pixels

New member
Holy crap! I just read this: "The FAA changed the existing regulations in early 1996, banning devices other than approved car seats during takeoff, taxi and landing. This FAA rule change DOES NOT prohibit the use of the Baby B'Air® during the cruise portions of the flight." from the Baby B'Air FAQ at http://babybair.com/faq.html .

So you're saying that 'cruise' is only when the fasten seatbelt light is off? I thought 'cruise' meant anything other than taxi, takeoff and landing. Or are you saying that the makers of the Baby B'air are not reporting correctly? I have no experience with this product, just reporting on what I read.

And yes, I realize that the FAA is not involved in this case, but if she's uncomfortable with the belly belt that the non-US airlines hand out, maybe this vest-like Baby B'air would be something she would be more comfortable with? I also assumed that FAA approved for cruise meant it was tested for turbulence, which I realize might be wrong. That's what's behind my suggestion (that and I generally am on FAA flights, so that's what I'm familiar with).

Here is the actual text of the FAA regulation: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/9FBAE1F18673BA68862571AB005032BD?OpenDocument
 

KaiLing

New member
Aaaaand now I'm mad about the Baby B'air as well as about people not being allowed to install their seats properly on the plane. Blah.

(They claim that they have an exemption for cruise portions of the flight under 14CFR part 21 but I can't find a place in there where that kind of a device could be issued a certificate, so I'm not sure what's going on, and their lack of transparency is alarming for something marketed as a safety device.)
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I'd do the Scenera. It's lightweight and inexpensive. Even if your child doesn't quite meet the minimums for forward-facing, I don't see how that would be more dangerous than holding him on your lap. (Note: I'm talking airplane use only here.)
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
BTW, I realize it doesn't matter on non-FAA flights, but page 10 of this document (http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-87B.pdf) addresses restraints that are not approved for taxi, takeoff, and landing. Page 11 also says that these restraints are not prohibited during times other than taxi, takeoff, and landing. It doesn't address turbulence. Based on that, I'd assume that the Baby B'Air isn't prohibited except during taxi, takeoff, and landing. (Page 11 also says that airlines don't have to allow their use, so they're not necessarily permitted by airlines, just not prohibited by the FAA during cruising.)

If someone has more info, though, please share.
 

rachelandtyke

Well-known member
I'd do the Scenera. It's lightweight and inexpensive. Even if your child doesn't quite meet the minimums for forward-facing, I don't see how that would be more dangerous than holding him on your lap. (Note: I'm talking airplane use only here.)

That's my thought as well.
 

krissybear25

New member
I would do the scenera rf it and if they say it's not allowed then switch it around to ff. I would feel alot better having baby in a seat then having baby anything else. I wouldn't worry about going against the manual for this, unless baby was alot smaller.
 

cupcakepirate11

Active member
i know it is easier to just play nice, I'd do the scerena RF and if they say anything about it I would just look at them dead pan and say "I'm really sorry but it is against the law and safety regulations to forward face my child" (I'd use some big words and lots of embellishments too so they get flabbergasted and just leave you alone haha) If they choose to keep arguing with you I would eventually turn her but not without trying to RF first. I think it depends on the flight attendant, some want things a certain way and others are more lenient.
 

krissybear25

New member
cupcakepirate11 said:
i know it is easier to just play nice, I'd do the scerena RF and if they say anything about it I would just look at them dead pan and say "I'm really sorry but it is against the law and safety regulations to forward face my child" (I'd use some big words and lots of embellishments too so they get flabbergasted and just leave you alone haha) If they choose to keep arguing with you I would eventually turn her but not without trying to RF first. I think it depends on the flight attendant, some want things a certain way and others are more lenient.

This Is too funny lol
 

cat mommy

New member
if they say anything about it I would just look at them dead pan and say "I'm really sorry but it is against the law and safety regulations to forward face my child" (I'd use some big words and lots of embellishments too so they get flabbergasted and just leave you alone haha)

I'm hoping Eclipse Pearl weighs in on this, but I'm thinking this will backfire. The FAs know that they are not subject to the FAA regs and aren't gonna be swayed by some jibberish. This si not the tactic I personally would go with.

I will skip details (but will happily vent with little prompting)

Go for it!! :D
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
I'm hoping Eclipse Pearl weighs in on this, but I'm thinking this will backfire. The FAs know that they are not subject to the FAA regs and aren't gonna be swayed by some jibberish. This si not the tactic I personally would go with.

Agreed. When Piper was 15 months and about 17 pounds we were in the UK flying British Midlands. I told them her seat wasn't FAA approved forward facing until 20 pounds. They got out their manual, showed me where it said she couldn't rear face, and looked me in the eye and asked if I wanted to forward face her or check the seat, and choose now because they had to go. I forward faced her. They are completely within their rights to not allow you to use your seat, force you to use it incorrectly, or kick you off the plane.

Wendy
 

OSLmom

New member
Hi everyone! Thanks for all your replies!

I'm leaning very heavily towards the Scenera as baby is weighing in at 22lbs now diapered and clothed. But I'm still a bit worried about the min height requirement of 34" (he is almost 31"). Why would there be a minimum height requirement? The harness has to be at or above shoulder height for FF anyway. There are harness slots for RF which has to be at or below shoulder height and you can use it up to 36". So there should be plenty of harness slots to choose from. Am I missing something? 34" seems like it would be off the charts for a 1 yr old.

I do wonder about the CARES idea. I was planning on getting the CARES harness eventually anyway after he outgrows the RF seat. That way I wouldn't have to haul 2 car seats back to the US. But I don't know if he will be comfortable directly in the plane seat. I feel like I'd be able to get more of a recline with the Scenera. Any thoughts on that?

I thought about bringing the Britax in it's box but the dimensions are too big for the luggage conveyer belt and would have to be checked as an oversized item which would cost $400 extra bc of the multiple airline changes. Of course I'm also stressing about having to check the Snugride again. I have a Kolcraft Universal Car Seat Carrier so I was planning on using it with the Scenera as a stroller in the airport and check the Snugride. I'll look for a box that will fit the Snugride and pack it really well. It's better to gate check I know but then we'd have to deal with 2 car seats in the airport. With 2, possibly 3, transfers (we're flying back KUL-SIN-HKG-SFO-CLE, they said we may or may not have to deplane in HKG) that would get really old. Argh.

I've discovered that Cathay Pacific trains their staff very well, they all know their manual front to back. I was stopped at checkin from using my Snugride RF. And then they made sure at the gate that I checked it, and then several FAs came by when we boarded to tell us about the bassinet and show us how to use the belly belt. I expect a similar experience with Singapore Airlines which is why I wrote to them to question the policy and complain so there would be no surprises (which was my problem the first time around - I hate surprises). They said no RF. Period. Until they change their policy. So I said I would like to bring a seat FF and they asked me for the dimensions! They are very thorough! So I don't think I will be able to sweet talk / con my way into RF.

Actually I was so frustrated with the whole experience (30 hrs and 2 transfers including 13 hrs from SFO to HKG with a screaming baby in my lap) that I ended up writing to the FAA (still no reply), CIC (the UK CAA's testing arm), and a bunch of other places. I also found the Australian TSB crash test report which was very elucidating. This is also how I found car-seat.org, so glad I did! In the end I still feel helpless. I'm going to write to my senator/congressperson when I get back stateside. Doesn't help with international travel but maybe they can make it easier to travel RF domestically (the Snugride ended up unusable after takeoff CLE-SFO bc the passenger in front reclined and was mean when I asked him to put his seat back upright, not that I blame him). I'm really going to have to be better at planning future international travel.

Not an option to buy a FF carseat here (in Malaysia) as there is no law that says children have to be in carseats so the ones that are available are all imported and $$$$. Needless to say we are RF whenever we drive anywhere here except two times - first when we were driving back from the airport, my mum was in the backseat with baby and he woke up and started crying and she took him out of his seat, I nearly had a conniption! We were on the highway and all I could think of was the one time I was actually passed by a car speeding in the opposite direction in the fast lane! Second time I was pressured into carrying him in arms bc we needed the space to transport an extra passenger back from dinner. I really hope that doesn't happen again.

I asked Cathay Pacific for a refund and they said I have to go through my travel agent (One Travel) so I doubt I'll get any money back. It was one of those "no refunds, no changes without hefty fees" kind of tickets. I actually had to pay almost $2000 in fees for the last minute change.

Anyway, thanks again everyone for reading my long post and weighing in as to what you would do. It would be a big help if you could let me know what you think about the CARES idea.

Hope y'all have a nice weekend!
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
i know it is easier to just play nice, I'd do the scerena RF and if they say anything about it I would just look at them dead pan and say "I'm really sorry but it is against the law and safety regulations to forward face my child" (I'd use some big words and lots of embellishments too so they get flabbergasted and just leave you alone haha) If they choose to keep arguing with you I would eventually turn her but not without trying to RF first. I think it depends on the flight attendant, some want things a certain way and others are more lenient.

Please don't "embellish". It ruins your credibility and that of advocates who are providing unembellished factual information.

I agree with LISMama that I would FF in the Scenera despite not quite meeting the requirements -- obviously on the plane only, not in a vehicle.

We don't know why Dorel has the 34" FFing minimum. For better or worse, many children smaller than 34" fit the seat quite well.
 

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