No real standards for higher harness seats?

U

Unregistered

Guest
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/13/AR2011031303926.html

There are really no federal regulations for seats that go to or past 65 lbs? These are somewhat new. Are they being thrown at the market without real (reliable and trustworthy) testing?

And there is no dummy that is higher-weight? Nothing reliable? Read this article.

How on earth do these seats make it to market? How can I assume ANY are safe? The article is scary. Why will it take until 2013 to get a dummy developed?
I don't want my higher-weight harnessed kid to BE the dummy until then.

And why would there be no side testing at all? These can be the most deadly. I don't get why the industry is lagging so much.
 
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Baylor

New member
There are a lot of comments in the article I take issue with but if you know proper car seat safety rules, you can eliminate some of the concern.
The issue of overloading LATCH anchors for example is easy. You only use them up to the Cars limit. If the cars limit is 48lbs for LOWER ANCHORS then you install with seat belt.

Having your child properly secured in a proper staged seat is the most important thing during a crash.
When using a HWH seat you need to do your research and make sure it is the right seat for your car and installed and used properly to make sure you get the right protection in a crash.

I am so glad these seats are out there. I harnessed my son til recently when he turned 7 and is now boostered properly. I have a 3 yr old that is height and weight wise the size of a 5 yr old. Not an ounce of fat on him, he is just a big solid boy. If it were not for HWH he would be in a booster with in the year.
 

Lea_Ontario

Well-known member
And why would there be no side testing at all? These can be the most deadly.

Statistics - a side-impact collision is the LEAST likely to happen, where a frontal-impact collision is the MOST likely to happen.

So the focus is still on frontal impacts.

For now. I am quite confident that we'll see side-impact testing and requirements.

Child passenger safety is an extremely young area of research and development, and look at the leaps and bounds we've made in just the last 10, 20 or 30 years. There is not much real information and history out there yet for engineers and designers to go on - it's coming now though, but it's going to take a long time to catch up with the information we have available for adults.
 

Pixels

New member
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/13/AR2011031303926.html

There are really no federal regulations for seats that go to or past 65 lbs? These are somewhat new. Are they being thrown at the market without real (reliable and trustworthy) testing?
There are many federal regulations for higher weight seats. Just not ALL of the same ones that exist at lower weights. It's worth noting that if a child restraint also fits a smaller child, then that restraint is held to the standards applicable to the smaller child. They test with all the dummies that fit, not just the biggest one.
And there is no dummy that is higher-weight? Nothing reliable? Read this article.
None of the child dummies are outstanding representatives of actual children, for many reasons. One is that the only way to learn how a child's body reacts under crash forces is to take a child's body and intentionally subject it to crash forces. Clearly we can't do that with living children. The alternative (and how adult dummies were developed) is to take cadavers (bodies donated to science) and "crash test" them. Nobody really wants to do that with children because (1) parents don't want their deceased children's bodies treated that way, and (2) the scientists don't really want to go there, either.

Children aren't small adults. Their bodies are not tiny adult bodies. But for now, that's what we have for crash test dummies.

There is a newborn dummy, a 12 month old, a 3 year old, a 6 year old, and a 10 year old. The 10 year old dummy is not used in testing child restraints because of the lack of biofidelity (it doesn't act like a 10 year old child's body, not even close). IIRC, the head snapped down to the chest too hard, giving high readings for head injury, even when a real child's head wouldn't move that way and therefore wouldn't have the head injury. The choice was to use the dummy and have bad data for the head injury, or position the head in a funny way and end up with bad data for all the other injury criteria. They chose neither, instead adding weights to the 6yo dummy's spine.
How on earth do these seats make it to market? How can I assume ANY are safe? The article is scary. Why will it take until 2013 to get a dummy developed?
I don't want my higher-weight harnessed kid to BE the dummy until then.
The seats make it to market because they pass all federal standards for child restraints.

I touched on dummy development already.

Your choice is to have your child BE the dummy, or don't go in a car. It doesn't matter if your child is in a high weight harness or a belt positioning booster. We just don't have the dummies to test these seats.

We DO know that a child is better protected in a properly used harness or booster than in a seat belt alone. Accident statistics clearly show that child restraints do their job.

If you want to get worked up over something, take a look at the crash test requirements for the back seat passengers in new vehicles. I'll give you a hint, there aren't any. Of course, that doesn't mean that the vehicle manufacturers never put a dummy in the back when they are doing product development, but they are not required to do so, and there are no standards. That doesn't mean that back seats are automatically unsafe; in fact, crash statistics clearly show that the back seat is safer than the front seat.
And why would there be no side testing at all? These can be the most deadly. I don't get why the industry is lagging so much.
They can't use the same dummies for front and side testing. The sensors which are designed to detect front to back movement won't work side to side. Also, the types of injuries sustained in front and side impacts are different. They have to develop a whole new set of dummies. Which brings us back to the conundrum about how to go about doing that.

Child restraint standards have only existed for 30 years. I believe 1981 was the first year with any standards whatsoever for a child restraint. Adult vehicle occupant protection has existed far longer; seat belts have been required in vehicles since 1965, and existed as an option before that.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
We DO know that a child is better protected in a properly used harness or booster than in a seat belt alone. Accident statistics clearly show that child restraints do their job.

This is what I was going to say. Crash tests with sleds and dummies (sleds don't have front seats on them, so does that mean we can't trust that carseats work in a car with a row of seats in front?) are half of the issue. The other half is what happens during and after a crash? There have been recalls based on actually crash performance. Seats that go over 40 pounds are not new. They've been around for 10 years (I want to say the Fisher Price Futura was the first to the market, but the Britax Marathon soon followed and was available easily to the masses. And now everyone has seats over 40 pounds). I'm sure in 10 years we would have seen a trend of child deaths in the higher weight seats if they had actually been a problem. Instead what we see are more and more kids living or having reduced injuries.

Wendy
 

bnsnyde

New member
I wonder if carseat makers could revise the box to put age minimums on the box? Not just weights, etc? I know Britax does that with the Frontier85, saying age 2 and up. Well, it's a start.

Someone bought a booster for a 3-year-old and it said 30 lbs. and up, ages 3 to 10. She felt terrible that it could be potentially unsafe because she followed the box exactly. She did not know there could be an issue with her 3-year-old in a booster. And she is going out and getting a harness now so that's good.

And if the BOX of the actual carseat says it's OK, well, I assume those stats are what people go by most of the time. Carseat makers could do so much better by labeling in a manner that is more consistent with what research suggests about child safety.
 

SeattleRain

New member
Pixels, it seems like from what you wrote that probably the least accurately tested seats are those designed for older children, like the combination seats we're seeing now, since they're not being used by very young children. Is that why we don't really know whether a booster or a harness is safer for a child over 40lbs who sits correctly in their booster every time (hypothetically, of course)? Given that it's unlikely that a 4 year old will sit nicely in a booster every time, I see the demand for HWH seats, but the point remains.
 

KaiLing

New member
I know I'm not normal, but this kind of thing drives me crazy. I have a 40 lbs 2 year old. We aren't represented by the dummy. We never were represented by the dummy and we never will be represented by the dummy. Neither will a 20 lbs 3 year old. So I do what I know to be safest in terms of basic physics (RF as long as possible, keep the kid in position, get the kid as close to fitting in the seat belt as possible).
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
Keep in mind that just because there's no federal standard for something doesn't mean that companies are producing less-than-ideal products. Frankly, I think it's kind of dangerous to assume that a government standard is the epitome of safety (or anything else). Agencies are so bogged down by bureaucracy and red tape (and budget constraints) that change--especially effective change--takes a long time, often not keeping up with the pace of real-world situations.

That's not to say that companies aren't--on their own--going above and beyond what's required in their own research and development. Without a public benchmark, we don't know exactly what they're doing or how it compares with other companies, but no manufacturer WANTS to put out a crappy product.

Among the advances companies have made: computer-simulated crash tests, installing their own testing facilities, redesigning their test benches to represent real cars (vs the generic federal standard), designing side-impact tests that they are petitioning NHTSA to adopt, etc.

Most of the advances in technology in recent years have come from companies trying to produce a better product, not from the government pushing it.

Yes, it's frustrating that federal regulations aren't keeping up with reality, but that's difficult in such a fast-evolving industry, and, like I said, doesn't necessarily mean that there is anything inferior or unsafe about what's out there.
 

Pixels

New member
Pixels, it seems like from what you wrote that probably the least accurately tested seats are those designed for older children, like the combination seats we're seeing now, since they're not being used by very young children. Is that why we don't really know whether a booster or a harness is safer for a child over 40lbs who sits correctly in their booster every time (hypothetically, of course)? Given that it's unlikely that a 4 year old will sit nicely in a booster every time, I see the demand for HWH seats, but the point remains.

Boosters and harnessed seats are held to the exact same standard. The only differences are that harnessed seats must also pass an additional tethered test and boosters obviously use a lap/shoulder belt, and harnesses use LATCH or lap-only belt.

We don't know if 4yos are safer in a properly used harness or a properly used booster in large part due to the misuse rate. At 75+% misuse, real world crashes can't be used to generate statistics. That leaves crash test results, but we don't have dummies that can give us that information.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/13/AR2011031303926.html

There are really no federal regulations for seats that go to or past 65 lbs? These are somewhat new. Are they being thrown at the market without real (reliable and trustworthy) testing?

And there is no dummy that is higher-weight? Nothing reliable? Read this article.

How on earth do these seats make it to market? How can I assume ANY are safe? The article is scary. Why will it take until 2013 to get a dummy developed?
I don't want my higher-weight harnessed kid to BE the dummy until then.

And why would there be no side testing at all? These can be the most deadly. I don't get why the industry is lagging so much.

Welcome to our world of Child Passenger Safety where standards and regulations often lag real world issuse by a decade or more:-(
 

SeattleRain

New member
Boosters and harnessed seats are held to the exact same standard. The only differences are that harnessed seats must also pass an additional tethered test and boosters obviously use a lap/shoulder belt, and harnesses use LATCH or lap-only belt.

We don't know if 4yos are safer in a properly used harness or a properly used booster in large part due to the misuse rate. At 75+% misuse, real world crashes can't be used to generate statistics. That leaves crash test results, but we don't have dummies that can give us that information.

Is it then assumed that a HWH is safer for a 4 year old because it is harder to misuse, as opposed to a booster? Or is it the opposite? Or can we not even make that assumption? I have plenty of friends whose 4 year olds are in Maestros and Cosco HBB with the harness, but they're incorrectly installed, or the straps are too loose and for sure there's a belly clip. I wonder if the kids would be safer in a booster where there is less room for error. On the other hand, who knows if those kids would stay in position, or if the booster would fit them correctly.

Maybe this is the topic of another thread.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
SeattleRain said:
Is it then assumed that a HWH is safer for a 4 year old because it is harder to misuse, as opposed to a booster? Or is it the opposite? Or can we not even make that assumption? I have plenty of friends whose 4 year olds are in Maestros and Cosco HBB with the harness, but they're incorrectly installed, or the straps are too loose and for sure there's a belly clip. I wonder if the kids would be safer in a booster where there is less room for error. On the other hand, who knows if those kids would stay in position, or if the booster would fit them correctly.

Maybe this is the topic of another thread.

Harnessed seats are safer than boosters for kids who can't sit properly in a booster. Most 4-year-olds can't. As for which is safer for a kid who can, we just don't know.

ETA: As for misuse, it really depends. Is a squirmy 4-year-old safer in a booster than a harnessed seat with unlocked belt and an untightened harness? Maybe. Maybe not. There are really too many variables to say.
 

Pixels

New member
Is it then assumed that a HWH is safer for a 4 year old because it is harder to misuse, as opposed to a booster? Or is it the opposite? Or can we not even make that assumption? I have plenty of friends whose 4 year olds are in Maestros and Cosco HBB with the harness, but they're incorrectly installed, or the straps are too loose and for sure there's a belly clip. I wonder if the kids would be safer in a booster where there is less room for error. On the other hand, who knows if those kids would stay in position, or if the booster would fit them correctly.

Maybe this is the topic of another thread.

There you have it. The misuse rate is over 90 percent, and that includes both harnessed seats and boosters.

If the parent/child can actually use a booster properly but can't install a harness seat to save their lives (literally), then a booster is better. But if the child can't stay properly seated, or the parent allows or even encourages the child to put the belt behind their back, then a booster isn't a good choice, either.

I just spend a long weekend installing seats in cars and kids in seats. This was not an event where parents were coming to us for more information about keeping their kids safe, they were there for another reason and my job was to take care of the kids. It was not a "best practice" situation, we were to use the same type of restraint they usually use as long as it was legal, or use a backless for those kids who were usually in nothing. Every single child was moved to the next seat (RFing to FFing, harness to booster, high back to backless) as soon as the law allowed. I estimate that I did about 250 seats in those three days, the vast majority in backless boosters, and only three kids used their backless boosters properly without correction from me. Either they weren't routing the belt properly, or they left slack in the lap belt without pulling it tight. One child was obviously so used to putting the belt behind his back that he attempted to do so in the booster; another did the same with the belt under the arm.

I installed seats for the parents, but of the three tots in harnesses, one parent put their child in perfectly and the other two were darn close, just needing the harness a tidge tighter. But they didn't have the opportunity to make any installation errors, and they didn't have time to develop jump rope twisty straps. I selected the seat for them based on child age/height/weight, and adjusted the harness straps, so there was no opportunity for error there, either.
 

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