So upset after visit to a car seat installation clinic

Hi all,

I'm hoping you can give me some advice on how to proceed. I'm still shaking and angry hours after we visited a car seat installation clinic put on by St John Ambulance and I feel I need to address my concerns directly with SJA and possibly even another authority but I'm not sure.

Here are the details:

2010 Ford Focus with UAS/latch
2000 Chrysler Concorde with ELR lap/shoulder seatbelts

Britax Boulevard convertible seat RF (Canadian 30lb RF weight limit)
Safety 1st onBoard air infant seat (obviously RF)

32 m/o DD who weighs approx 25-26lbs
3 m/o DD who weighs approx 11-12lbs

We drove both cars to the clinic. Our seats were installed in our Focus using UAS/latch. We were confident with our installs but had the techs look them over before removing the seats so they could be installed in the Concorde. They thought the seats were installed well although stated that the Britax should be 45*. It was installed between 30-35*. They also said that there needed to be a hand's width room between the car seat and the front seat whereas we had maybe half of that (but definitely not touching because the seats have air bag sensors). My understanding is that the seat can be reclined more upright now that my DD1 is older, and that in fact, it is safer to do so. The tech in charge was adamant that it must be 45*. Can anyone also comment on the amount of space to be left between seats?

Next, they proceeded to install the infant seat in the Concorde. The Concorde has no UAS/latch so belt install was the only option. The base has a built in seat belt path lock off so they chose not to use the lock off clip that comes with the seat. Everything looked ok visually once installed although I did not see them test the seat for movement as I was busy with my newborn.

They then installed the convertible seat and had to use a pool noodle to help angle the seat. Again I was not there myself to see the full install (my husband was watching). Once installed, I did question how very relined the seat was once my DD was buckled into it. He used a device to measure the angle and I saw it read approx 48*. I decided not to press the issue any further. I will also mention, while I understand there is debate about RF tethering, the tech clearly didn't think we should do it so we opted not to in the Concorde install even though we chose to tether in the Focus although the choice was ultimately left up to us.

Like instructed before coming to the clinic, we had our instruction manuals for both seats and both cars with us but they were never consulted at any time during the install.

I left feeling uneasy about the recline of the Britax but thought that it would be ok for the 20 minute trip home. However once I got home, I realized how poorly installed the seats actually were (and I'm so thankful nothing happened on our drive which was mostly along a major highway - the 401 in Ontario - it makes me sick to my stomach to think about it). I went to remove my DD1 from her Britax and thought I should first test the seat myself. I was able to very, very easily move it side to side at the belt path. After a few pulls and pushes back and forth it was moving at least 6" in either direction. Prior to doing that I noted that the recline was at least 50*, likely even 55*. I then tested the infant seat. It easily moved, not quite as much as the Britax, more like 4" in either direction.

I consulted the manuals and quickly noted that the infant seat requires using the included belt locking clip with ELR lap/shoulder belts, in addition to using the belt path lock off on the base. Had they bothered to look at the manual they would have seen this in bold. I can't as easily find anything about lock off clips or ELR belts in the Britax manual. Clearly the built in lock off was not sufficient on the Britax.

I don't know what to do now. Should I report my experience to anyone? Who? I actually had my husband take a quick video of me testing the seats before we removed them to install back into our Focus so I can share those if need be. I feel like I'm a fairly educated parent about car seats and I can only imagine how long an uneducated parent might have driven around with these seats installed unsafely. I feel that the tech in charge (who was teaching 4-5 other techs) needs to be reprimanded and re-educated, and that the other techs in training need to learn the correct way to install the seats because they obviously learned the incorrect method today. Ultimately I'm angry with myself for not testing the seats while still at the clinic - perhaps they would have had a chance to correct their mistakes then and there before my children were put in danger.

Of course, I signed a waiver stating they are not in any way to be held liable, and I'm not looking for compensation (a refund of my small donation would be nice considering we wasted so much of our time this morning!) however my ultimate goal is that no other children are put at risk of being hurt since I believe this tech will continue to install seats incorrectly and parents will unknowingly trust that their install was done safely. Overall I know that the volunteers at SJA are trying to do a good thing for the public however they happened to do more harm than good today.

Please, any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Hi, First off, I'm so sorry for the crappy installs you had this morning. That can be very frustrating. I know there are a few techs here from Ontario, and some work in the Toronto area SJA, so hopefully they can chime in.

If it states in your manual you must use the built in lockoff, then I would advise you to re-do the install using the lock-offs.

As for Britax, I don't believe its mandatory to use their lockoffs (I could be wrong), but since they are there, I would advise it especially for rear-facing since it will prevent it from tipping.
You need to make sure that your seat belt looks in some way when installing a car seat. Be it at the retractor, the latch plate of using a built in lockoff or a locking clip.

Again I hope someone with more knowledge of the Ontario SJA will pop in and be able to better help you out!

Sounds to me like these people were not certified techs... I'd report to the people running the check.

To my knowledge once a baby has good head control you can decrease the incline if you want to. My dd rf'd til 3 and I never had her boulevard at 45* because she was 14 months when we put her in it...

I'm moving this thread to the International forum to catch the attention of our Canadian techs.

There is no real recourse to report bad techs in Canada unfortunately. If you can post what branch this happened at it's possible that I may be able to get some sort of contact initiated with the branch to correct the mis-teaching.

To comment on your Sure Fit infant seat, they were correct to use only the built-in lock-off for the seat. The locking clip is for if you were installing the seat baseless and had only ELR belts. Your belts in the 2000 vehicle also aren't only ELR, they are most likely cinching (lightweight locking as you'll read in US terms,) latchplates. I don't think I've ever worked in a Concord before, but with it being a 2000 model year vehicle, the belts definitely lock - it's just a question of whether they lock at the latchplate or the retractor.

Regardless, the lock-off has to be used on the Sure Fit base at all times, and a locking clip would not be used when installing the base. Which section of the lock-off gets used is dependent on whether it is a seatbelt or a UAS install.

You are correct that the Britax seat can be more upright for your older daughter. Britax allows anything in the 30 to 45* range. The curriculum itself only covers 45* in the actual manual - BUT it heavily stresses referring to the vehicle owners manual and the car seat manual. Being as these were new techs, they should've looked in both manuals. 45* wouldn't have been wrong to do with the seat - provided it didn't exceed 45* once your daughter was in the seat, but in general kids tend to prefer to be a bit more upright. It is theoretically safer in that the seat won't rotate down as far when it starts off more upright, but seats which rotate down less rebound further, so I wouldn't consider it a definite fact that more upright is safer. As long as you're within the manufacturers required limits, that's all that matters.

Britax doesn't require that you use the lock-offs if your seatbelt locks. You cannot use a locking clip with your Britax seat, so if you were in an older vehicle with belts that were only ELR, you would have to use the lock-offs. With a cinching latchplate you don't run in to tipping problems, but with an ELR/ALR (aka switchable belt,) you sometimes do. As Shanora mentioned, using the built in lock-off removes any risk of tilting.

I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience at the clinic. Good for you for reading your manuals and realizing you had to correct the installations.

SJA was a mess here in Borden...they could not get my scenera insatlled rf in my 2004 crv without my help and insisted that dd be turned ff (just over a year old and maybe 21lbs soaken wet)
they had never heard of a car seat rf to 45lbs- were not even familliar with the radian name
I was pissed!!!
I felt that I knew more than they did and I don't know much or I would not be here asking questions...lol
SCAREY that they were here training our police...ouch!!!

Would you mind PMing me with the location of this clinic.

I am in Scarborough, and would love to meet up with you to help you out. You can come to me during the week, or I can meet up with you on the weekend.

I also just had a terrible experience with a clinic in Guelph run by Co-Operators Insurance. I'm going to contact them this week. I'm certain that the people there were not registered techs - is there any way of finding this out when you go to a clinic? There seem to be very few clinics in Ontario, and I don't think I would bother going to one again after what happened.

It was mostly them reading the manual and trying to figure out how the seat installed. (They had never seen a Radian seat before.) It took forever because they wanted to read through the whole manual, and the installation they did was looser than the one I arrived with. They also told me things about my seat (like that it can't touch the front seat, and that it can't be anchored with a tether when RF) that are false for the Radian XT, and I had to correct them. I'm sure there are other people who were given incorrect information and didn't have the background to know that what they were being told was wrong.

What a waste of time! Is there a resource for finding good clinics (i.e. with registered techs) in Ontario, or is there another place to take car seats to have the installation checked? I know they used to do it at fire stations, but I don't think they do anymore.

You can ask to see their certificate.
Too bad you're not closer this way, Kingston and Ottawa run many clinics and I can vouch that we're certified and informed.

Celeste, I had a very positive experience at the SJA in Mississauga. Rather than going to their clinic, I went to one of their installation workshops, which are 2 hours long, and $20 (rather than the by-donation that the clinics are). They're weeknights, rather than weekends, so it helps if there's someone who can stay at home with the kid(s).

I drove in to take the workshop from KW, and got a lot out of it. With my bucket, we'd gone to the SJA car seat clinic in Cambridge, and came away with a seat that was installed, but probably shouldn't have been (it took about 2 hours, three or four teams of techs, and I couldn't have repeated it to save my life). For the five months she was in the car seat, I was terrified of the idea of uninstalling it. So with my convertible, I decided to go with the more in depth workshop, and it was awesome. I now have no concerns about being able to install her seat (which helped a lot when we went car shopping last week).

I keep the small portion of my certificate in mt wallet and a colour copy in both binders that I have my papers in. So anyone certified would have received a certificate.

That being said, not all Techs are created equal, and some are more up to date than others.

CelesteM said:

I also just had a terrible experience with a clinic in Guelph run by Co-Operators Insurance. I'm going to contact them this week. I'm certain that the people there were not registered techs - is there any way of finding this out when you go to a clinic? There seem to be very few clinics in Ontario, and I don't think I would bother going to one again after what happened.

It was mostly them reading the manual and trying to figure out how the seat installed. (They had never seen a Radian seat before.) It took forever because they wanted to read through the whole manual, and the installation they did was looser than the one I arrived with. They also told me things about my seat (like that it can't touch the front seat, and that it can't be anchored with a tether when RF) that are false for the Radian XT, and I had to correct them. I'm sure there are other people who were given incorrect information and didn't have the background to know that what they were being told was wrong.

What a waste of time! Is there a resource for finding good clinics (i.e. with registered techs) in Ontario, or is there another place to take car seats to have the installation checked? I know they used to do it at fire stations, but I don't think they do anymore.

Click to expand...

That's really too bad. The co-operators program is called buckle up bears and they are involved with the Infant and Toddler Safety Association (which is another organization that offers certification within Canada). http://www.infantandtoddlersafety.ca/ I've attended there Child Restraint Safety Workshop before, and while they did have a decent assortment of seats to play with, there were no Radians or even Britax seats. They taught concepts rather then intricacies of every seat currently out there.

Canada doesn't have an overseeing body for car seat technicians, even so I'd be tempted to contact ITSA and let them know of your experience.

Could you also PM me which SJA location it is? I'm in Oakville/Mississauga if you are close enough and still need help.

And I'm in Oshawa, if you're out this side of Toronto.

Wow, thank-you so much everyone for your replies and offers to help. I didn't want to speak badly about SJA publicly so I chose not to name the exact location. I do think my experience was caused by a specific tech (if he was actually a certified tech?) and not SJA themselves. That being said, it was the Mississauga location. They were running a 'by appointment only' clinic because the main tech was teaching 4 or 5 others at that time. The appointment felt a bit rushed because there was another vehicle waiting and we weren't given any additional time despite having 2 seats to install. I'll also gladly accept help from anyone offering, thank-you! I'll send along a PM once I can (now that I'm registered) to see if we can make arrangements to meet up.

I'm still not 100% sure why the seats so easily came loose despite using the built in lock offs but I'm sure it has to do with the seat belt design. I think the Concorde has true ELR retractors with sliding latch plates. The Safety 1st manual says that combination requires that you MUST use a belt lock off. I'm not sure if this explains the issue with the Britax seat as well but I do know that we've been unable to install the Britax in our 2001 Jeep Wrangler for a while now but for some reason were able to before - maybe the built in lock offs have been damaged somehow? I think the Jeep has ALR retractors but I'm not sure since I've not been in there in ages.

The seats are now back in our Focus. Thank goodness for UAS/latch! However, the Focus is my husband's work vehicle and the Concorde is my inlaws and is mine to use for the summer - a nice chance at some freedom as a stay at home mom! If only I can get the seats in there and feel that they are as safe as our Focus UAS install.

Now that I've cooled off a little, I do intend to send a written complaint to SJA headquarters and will also look into the suggestion of contacting ITSA. My husband suggested contacting CBC news for their Marketplace feature but I'm not sure that I want to pursue it that far. I do however want to ensure this tech is made aware of his mistakes so that they are not repeated in the future.

Thanks again everyone!

Somehow I had a hunch it might have been the Mississauga branch. Please PM me and I can pass info/feedback along/up the channel and to the team coordinator and other instructors on the team. Have your yellow sheet with you as I might need some specific info. Thanks.

One more question for those who can answer... are the clinics held by SJA supposed to be educational (as in teach us how to install our own seat)? Despite my husband's efforts to be involved, asking questions and trying to visualize what was actually happening, not much instruction was given to us.

Hipmaman, I PM'd you as well.

Thanks again

IDEALLY, yes - they should be educational.

Unfortunately - I've seen them so backed up that the techs just fly through each car as fast as they can.

I'm involved with SJA Durham as a Team Leader, and the other Team Leader and I encourage our tech team to get the parents involved, to talk them through it and take the time to ensure the parents leave with their questions answered.

crystalcm said:

One more question for those who can answer... are the clinics held by SJA supposed to be educational (as in teach us how to install our own seat)? Despite my husband's efforts to be involved, asking questions and trying to visualize what was actually happening, not much instruction was given to us.

Hipmaman, I PM'd you as well.

Thanks again

Click to expand...

Yes, they are supposed to be educational. But I know from experience, it can depend on the techs and instructors at the clinics, some just take over and do it for you (especially the challenging cases) while others would really get the parents to do the majority of the physical work and the techs/instructors would just talk/instruct.

Got your PM and PMed back.