Touchy Subject

I've got an opinion question for you all, I've rather grown to respect your opinions, so thought it'd be a good place to vent something that just happened at our house and find out what you guys think.
My son is 2 years old, will be 3 at the end of July. He's seriously touchy-feely all the time, sleeps in my bed, I believe in attachment parenting. He's been cranky for several days so I knew he was getting sick, today the runny nose showed up to confirm it. So he's been sticking out his tongue, throwing more fits, throwing more stuff, more hitting and such the past few days. We live with my parents. Tonight my mom (grammy) said something to him and he stuck his tongue out at her. He came to be with me for a few minutes and asked if the dog could sleep with him. I told him to go ask Grammy. So he went in there and said (nicely, I swear) 'can I have Shelby please?' And she said something about why should she let him have the dog if he's going to be mean to her and stick his tongue out at her. And told him he needed to come over and be nice to her if he wanted the dog to sleep with him tonight. He proceeded to throw something at her. And she said he couldn't have the dog, that he needed to ask nicely. When he already did! Irritated the dickens outta me b/c though he shouldn't be throwing stuff/sticking his tongue out, that happened 2-3 minutes before, why'd she have to bring it up again? To me you deal with the discipline at the time, not 2 minutes later. So it started a big fit with him being sad/mad b/c he couldn't have the dog. She told him he had to come over and tell her good night and he could have the dog. So I got more irritated. Why isn't asking enough. Ok. So he comes upstairs with me, still crying cuz he wants the dog, and my mom is yelling at me about how I let him do whatever he wants and how I'm letting him act like a spoiled brat. He's upset and I'm holding him, he starts rubbing my bosoms back and forth. I told him 'no, those are mommy's' but he wanted to keep doing it. I figure I want him to stop, but there's no deeper meaning here, he's just looking for a part of me he can pet and be comforted. Then my mom starts jumping case about how I'm letting him, and I quote 'touch me inappropriately'! He's 2! So now I can just see how in her mind, my little baby boy is now someone who needs to be watched around my 8-year-old sister. She hasn't said that, but I wonder.

Anyways - all that to ask these questions:
Do your kids 'touch' yall sometimes in places they shouldn't? I'm sure we all tell them no, but do you consider it a big deal or just misguided affection or comfort seeking? Should I have backed my mom up in making him ask again (cuz I didn't, I felt he was sick and needed some leeway, and he DID ask nicely before she brought up his naughtiness again)?

I'm no worried about his touching me, but I am wondering what other parents think, particularly you other moms that believe in attachment parenting.

THANK YOU in advance for taking the time to read this and answering if you do.
Amy

((hugs)) Your mom is from a different parenting era and she's wrong, IMO. It's so hard when we combine multiple generations in a single household (been there, done that).

Hayley will be six in a couple weeks and still sometimes pats my boobs. :ROTFLMAO: She finds it hilariously funny that they jiggle. I always explain to her that you don't touch someone without asking, and you don't touch someone there--but we didn't expect her to understand an explanation about that at 2, not quite 3.

You are right about disciplining immediately, too. 2-3 minutes for a 2-3 year old is a LONG time.

I agree with Jenny.

Also it is not unusual for an infant or small child to find comfort in their mother's breast, whether they were breastfed or not. I think it is a natural thing. Breasts are not innapropriate for a child to innocently find comfort in. They are, only if you make them out to be. If you wish to divert the behavior maybe find a soft toy he can have, or teach him to hold your hand.

That helps, although the thought of his still reachin' for my boobs at 6 sucks, lol, but even then I can't imagine thinking it's gross or something. I mean, I breastfed him, and I think somehow that makes a baby think hey those are mine for the forseeable future. My mom is only in her 40's, and she usually agrees with attachment parenting (she's actually the one that found Dr. Sears book at the library and encouraged me to read it. I was already doing the stuff he said to, but he confirmed a lotta stuff). But I was molested as a child, several different times by people she trusted and so now any touching seems to seriously freak her out. It helps to hear someone else say I'm not underreacting, or overreacting on the other subject. She just seems to expect so much from him sometimes, and I just wanna scream, 'he's 2 - he's still a baby!!' lol

My mom was molested as a child and was a very hands-off mother. I don't remember hugs and kisses. So now I am a very touchy-feely mom because of it. I don't want Hayley growing up feeling like she can't touch her own mom.

I didn't think she'd be playing with my boobs at almost six, either. But she knows never to do it in front of other people, and she only does it to be funny. She tries to spank my backside, too, and we aren't a spanking family, it's just funny to her.

It's hard to walk that line between appropriate and inappropriate touch sometimes. There's so much variance in what people view as okay.

I think its natural, too. It is hard to know where the line is of being inappropriate. I know I got some funny looks at church a few times b/c Dylan will wrap around my leg (just one leg, lol) and he ends up with his head pretty much in my crotch, but that's just cuz that's what height he is. He's been doing it since he could stand and he was only at mid thigh, it just didn't look as funny then. And he touches me all the time, especially when he's sleeping. He's gotta cuddle right up next to me. I never wanna cross a line, but to me I cherish it. all of it. A day will come when he'll feel too big to hug me all the time or hol dmy hand or rub my back or whatever and I know I'll miss my baby. I suck up all of it now knowing it won't last. I also hope to build a healthy sense of affection in him, so he knows how to be with his wife later since they say the opposite sex parent teaches the child how to treat/and be treated by future mates.

Anyways - all that to ask these questions:
Do your kids 'touch' yall sometimes in places they shouldn't? I'm sure we all tell them no, but do you consider it a big deal or just misguided affection or comfort seeking? Should I have backed my mom up in making him ask again (cuz I didn't, I felt he was sick and needed some leeway, and he DID ask nicely before she brought up his naughtiness again)?

I'm no worried about his touching me, but I am wondering what other parents think, particularly you other moms that believe in attachment parenting.

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Re: Touching - well, my daughter has tried to touch my nipples in the recent past and it's made me uncomfortable so I've asked her not to. My opinion on this though, is that it's your comfort level and his comfort level that count. My ds is 7.5 mos old and he kneeds my breast sometimes when he's nursing. That doesn't bother me at all. And if he's still nursing when he's 2, I wouldn't see it bothering me then if he did it while nursing. Aside from nursing, I'm not sure how I'd feel about it... but breasts are not a sexual object to a child. And for a baby who has bf, there is a lot of comfort there. My daughter likes to just rest her head against my chest and I'm fine with that. Anyways... I'm sure it was a comfort thing. And if you don't have a problem with it and he's not grabbing other women's breasts, then I don't think it's a big deal.

About your mom, well, you observed him asking nicely. For me that would've been good enough. It sounds like your mom was just trying to stick it to him for him sticking his tongue out at her.

Kids will be kids, and I think sick kids do need be cut some slack within reason. Some things are never acceptable, but others I think extra understanding is needed. Illness and mood/behavior is one of those circumstances. If he'd hit her, then it would be a different issue, but he stuck his tongue out for goodness sake. Adults themselves don't have the best impulse control and get grumpy and out of sorts when they're sleep deprived or feeling sick.. it's not fair to expect stellar behavior from a sick kid. Not that being sick gives them a free license... like I said, some things are unacceptable no matter what... but sticking out his tongue most certainly doesn't fall into that category for me.

My daughter turns 3 in July also, and even on good days this is just a trying age.

Should you have backed up your mom? My opinion is no - it seems like you saw it as an unreasonable request since your ds had already asked nice the first time around, and I think since she's a grandparent you're not obligated to back up things like that. Especially seeing as your on different pages of parenting it seems. In this case I think not demanding a 2nd nice request was sticking up for your ds, and I think that's more important.

Not to lump your mom into a group in general, but a lot of those in the 50'ish age group were raised with the spare the rod spoil the child philosophy and teach them to be independent right from the start. For those that were raised that way and still believe it, seeing you parent based on what works for you as a family and what your ds needs, is likely to be just plain difficult and I'm guessing it'd be near impossible for her to keep her opinions to herself & just respect your parenting decisions.

Anyways, don't know if I've answered your questions or just rambled... long and short of it is I think there's nothing for you to worry about in terms of what you expected from your ds in relation to what happened between him and your mom, and if you're ok with the situation that arose where he rubbed your breasts, then ok.

You're the parent, and if everyone is healthy and happy and comfortable then I don't see a problem. I mean he's not even 3 yet. He's at a tough age and just expressing himself the only way he knows how. And if the touching is clearly just for comfort, then I'd just work on redirecting it to another source of comfort in the future since as he gets older this is obviously something you won't want him thinking is ok. Heck, now that I think about it, he could just be curious too. Give him the response you think is appropriate and guide him that way. And who cares what your mom thinks.

:twocents:

Just wanted to add that others x-posted before I got my post posted. I see your mom isn't totally anti AP, so I apologize for that assumption.

snowbird25ca said:

Re: Anyways... I'm sure it was a comfort thing. And if you don't have a problem with it and he's not grabbing other women's breasts, then I don't think it's a big deal.

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He actually has tried to look down grammy's shirt on occasion, he seems fascinated. But, usually its just me he pets all the time, not just the chest, usually anywhere he can reach.

snowbird25ca said:

About your mom, well, you observed him asking nicely. For me that would've been good enough. It sounds like your mom was just trying to stick it to him for him sticking his tongue out at her.

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My mom does pretty staunchly believe I shouldn't ever let him stick his tongue out at me or anyone, she says its disrespectful, which it is, but he's 2-3 and I just don't see it as that big a deal. I don't want him cussing people out or beting them up, but I don't want to take away his every last way of expressing. But yeah, probably was her feeling since she doesn't like it ever.

snowbird25ca said:

If he'd hit her, then it would be a different issue, but he stuck his tongue out for goodness sake.

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He has hit her a couple times the last few days, not hits that hurt, but I don't want him hitting whether it hurts or not. My thing to her was yea, it was a tongue, and it was several minutes ago!

snowbird25ca said:

Should you have backed up your mom? My opinion is no - it seems like you saw it as an unreasonable request since your ds had already asked nice the first time around, and I think since she's a grandparent you're not obligated to back up things like that. Especially seeing as your on different pages of parenting it seems. In this case I think not demanding a 2nd nice request was sticking up for your ds, and I think that's more important.

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This in particular makes me feel better, cuz I hate it when she puts me in this position of either being evil mommy or making her out to be evil grammy. It didn't have to be that way. I feel bound to resepect her and not say things that make my son think different of her, but she put me in a position where I felt she was wrong and I wanted him to know I thought he did ok. Totally unfair.

Yeah, since we're in the same house no hope of her not meddling, lol. Like I said, usually she agrees with me, but she always tends to think I'm too lenient with him. Whereas I think she's too lenient with my little sister, lol.

I did try and redirect him elsewhere, but in his state of fit, he wasn't having any of it and it only upset him more. I said, "don't touch, those are mommy's" and he said "I want to" and acted nearly frantic about it. I'll just bet if I hadn't said anything he woulda moved on to petting my hair or back or something, but b/c I focused on it, so did he. ut I knew my mom was sitting there watching thinking how bad it was. Its so hard to separate being her daughter from being his mother sometimes since we live here. Even though living here really is the best option right now. Allows me to stay home during the day with him.

snowbird25ca said:

Just wanted to add that others x-posted before I got my post posted. I see your mom isn't totally anti AP, so I apologize for that assumption.

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No problem, your post made me feel better. You had no way to know. I'm 25 and my mom is only like 42-43.

My 2.5 yr old will sometimes try to start patting my breasts, and I just encourage him to pat my back instead. My oldest had issues with inappropriate touching with his grandmothers a year or two ago. I explained to him that areas cover by underwear were always private areas, and that a woman's chest is a private area too. He seemed to "get" that, and it hasn't been a problem since. If you don't mind your 2/3 yr old touching you that way when he's upset, then I think that should be your call. Don't be afraid to change those "rules" as he gets older though. You can certainly decide to modify what you allow as he matures, and finds other ways to cope with his sadness/frustrations.

As far as the situation with your mom though...That's a little more difficult. My parents are more strict too, and sometimes I can tell that they are thinking I should be handling things differently. I do what I want at my own house, but I do hold the kids to a higher standard when we are at my parent's (or grandparents). Of course, that would probably be different if I lived there all the time though. But I really do feel that the grandparents should be able to (within reason) control the relationship that they have with my kids. If they correct my kids, I usually try to back them up. I do the same with teachers at school. Unless it's something outrageous, I support what they said because I feel that its important for the kids to respect other authority figures as well--even if those rules are different/more restrictive from the rules of the parent. If your mom doesn't want to give in to your son's request after she feels he was rude to her, then that should be her decision. I think it's immature on HER part to be so offended by a child that young (who is just acting his age), but I still think that's her decision to make. If it really bothers you, you should sit down and talk to her at some later point (when both of you are calm), and your son is asleep so you won't be interupted. Just make sure to avoid those "You always" or "You never" sort of statements. Stick with talking about "When this happened....it made me feel..." And let her know how you'd like her to handle the same type of situation in the future. Just because she's your mom doesn't mean she can read your mind, and it may help her to hear how you feel. Sorry you are having to deal with all of this!! I hope your son gets back to healthy very soon.

Edited to add: Does your mom have any sons?? My parents only had daughters, and I only have sons, so I think sometimes they are just shocked by how different boys can be. Boys tend to be a little (or sometimes A LOT) more physical in expressing how they feel, so it could be a gender thing that she has to get used to too??

Charlie is almost two and he touches my breasts all the time. He nurses almost all night long, and he constantly has the other one in his hand. I'm *trying* to break the habit of twiddling my nipple, because that's annoying and painful.

If he's scared or hurt out in public, he doesn't really want to nurse, but he'll put his arm up or down my shirt and just hold on. I let him. He's a baby. If that's what he needs to comfort himself, so be it. He did it when my father was here a few weeks ago, and I thought my dad was going to go nuts. Instead he just laughed at it, which was reassuring!

You're the mom. If it doesn't bother you, don't worry about them. Boys are physically affectionate, they just are. Mine is extremely affectionate and wants to hold, touch, and kiss everyone. Luckily most of the people in my life are okay with that.

I am having the opposite problem at the moment. LOL. My Mom and MIL want me to let Jackson do whatever he wants (I think part of that is his ASD)

But my therepyst says all children seek boundaries and to provide those boundaries in a loving way. (I am loving, he just pitches a fit)

As for the touching, Jackson is not affectionate at all. I wish he would be.(he should be, I breastfed him) Though with therepy, he just started coming to us when hurt/or has a problem. He mostly goes around in his own world.

Good Luck to you. I stayed with my MIL for 2 months and it was.......undiscribable. I am sure my own mom would have been worse. Many kudos to you.

I ditto a lot of what's already been said. From your description of what happened -- my advice would be since he's only almost 3 years old -- don't use 'too many words' & pick the most opportune time to fight your battles.

(one of our phrases long ago from the movie "Amadeus" where the emperor was telling Mozart that there's only so many (musical) notes the ear can hear: Too many notes )

He's not feeling good, so that even cuts down the comprehension level. Everything should be down to the most basic of communication. He's not going to understand the long involved sentences that you and your mother were saying to him and around his head. He'll pick up his name, but everything else will muddle into "Blah Blah Blah-- NO!" Then you have a fight on your hands when you're least wanting it.

All that back & forth to ask questions when he's tired and right before bedtime is just ingredients for tantrum or other upset behavior. It's too confusing.

I don't tolerate rudeness from dd, but when she's exhausted, I'll give her leeway to just get her in bed as soon as possible. When she's doing the most fighting & screaming when she's not feeling well at 6:45pm, that means she's needing her sleep NOW! She'll be sound asleep within 5 minutes of laying down.

The KISS principle works very well. Keep it simple, silly (or stupid, depending ) 3 word sentences with 1 or 2 of your primary goals for him to do. Figure out what is most important. Is it brushing teeth or worrying about the tongue sticking out? Can you put off for another day during a better time for that when the situation is easier for you to fight that battle? Just before bed is a horrible time to try to enforce discipline for someone so young. It's like taking a test after you've been up for 16 hours. Don't set yourself or your son up for failure by lousy timing

Instead of waiting for the last minute to ask about doggy sleeping with him, talk about it just after dinnertime. If it's a negative answer, he'll be more prepared when it's actually bedtime. Right now, at his young age, I wouldn't use doggy priviledges as a discipline leverage after dinner. There's too many variables for blowups. Maybe in a couple of months and definitely when he's feeling better.

I hate to say it, but imo what your mom was doing was just plain mean and spiteful. She was playing head games with a 2 year old. He doesn't know better. She does. And then you both getting into a fight about it with him right there. Not good at all for your son :crying:

Anyway, that's some thoughts from someone only a couple of years younger than your mother You gave me a shock when you said that.

Sometimes kids find comfort in different things.

My ds is obsessed with my hair. If he's tired, or feeling unsure of something, or sometimes just for fun...he loves to have his hands all tangled up in my hair. He gets really upset if it's up in a ponytail or otherwise unaccessable.

He has done it since he was about 4 months old. It's just his security object.

Like some kids have a stuffed animal or blanket that they are attatched to, some kids form attachments to other things like hair or boobs

It's completely normal, and I hope your mom can come to understand that.

My mom only has girls, me (25) and my sister (8). She hasn't dealt with a baby boy much since she was a teenager, but my son and I have lived with her since I was pregnant with him and his dad is...a booty. I appreciate the viewpoint of having him respect his grandparents' authority even when their rules are different than mine. I want to do that. I felt unsure how to handle last night though. I try very hard not to set my child up to misbehave. I don't shop when he's tired, I try and keep him busy, I don't expect real good behavior when he's sick, I try not to put him in situations where its definite he will misbehave. Sometimes I can't help it, but most of the time that's the best discipline deterrant I have, controlling his surroundings. I wouldn't have told he him he had to go say good night to anyone when he's sick, cuz its a fight when he's not! Its a nicety I want him to start doing, but it wasn't the time to pick that fight. But I do want him to obey her rules. He kinda has to, she watches him 4-10 hours a week while I work.

But it has majorly helped hearing so many of you say your kids touch you sometimes too. If so many do it, its absolutely normal, and I will let her know that when we get the chance to talk about it. Cuz I am really worried she will see it as some sign he's a dirty little kid instead of what it is, him seeking comfort. You all have been SO helpful!!! :thumbsup:

My 2 1/2 yr old neice was just weaned and sticks her hand down ANYONE's shirt. Her mom, dad, sister, brother, mine, another aunt, her grandparents....so as you can see...it's not just breasts she's after is that skin to skin contact. Now they've got to manage to teach her were to touch...but they are still working on the adjustment to the ketogenic diet for her seizures.

Susan

My 2nd child (first son) was a twiddler/fondler when nursing. And when not nursing. And any time he was anywhere near my breasts, basically. He had his hand down my shirt all of the time as a toddler. He weaned around his 2nd birthday, right as baby sister arrived, although he still nursed on occasion for a few months after that. It was just a moment of re-asserting that I still loved him as much as ever, that he was still my "baby". But his hand was down my shirt for AGES even after he was completely beyond weaning. I didn't like it much, but I understood it. It bothered me that it was not socially acceptable; I did think of how others might view it, and if they would think it was inappropriate, although I myself didn't see a problem with it (other than irritation that someone was touching my touched-out breasts, yet again...).

With future children I nipped the breast twiddling/fondling in the bud early on in infancy. Mostly by holding the "free" hand gently as they nursed, and later by giving them something to hold if they were feeling "grabby". I usually wore a necklace that could be fiddled with, without fear of breaking too easily. Still.... later on down the road I had my 2nd son. He nursed until about age 2.5, weaned with little trouble, but STILL at a week shy of turning 8 will walk up to me and rub my boob to get my attention, or hug me and rub his face into my bosom (and he's at the perfect height for it, LOL!). He just doesn't see it as a "private" area, although I've kindly explained it to him at least a hundred times over the past 5-6 years, that only nursing babies touch mama's boo-boos that way. :shrug-shoulders:

Then there's my 3 yr. old daughter, who has been weaned for over a year. She still reaches out and plays with them like old friends when she happens to see me naked! She even asked to nurse a month or two ago, although as I said she's been weaned over a year. I let her, and she promptly told me, "There's no milk in your boo-boos. I think I drank it all when I was a tiiiny pink baby." (meaning newborn)

I wouldn't sweat the touching, although I perfectly understand why you're concerned about what your mom might be thinking. Maybe try again to explain to her that he is too young to have any concept of them as anything other than a soft, comfortable part of his mom's body that makes him feel safe and secure.

As for the discipline differences, ITA w/ pp's. You've got the right idea here about him being sick, giving a bit more leeway and definitely that she shouldn't be essentially holding a grudge against a 2 yr. old for sticking his tongue out at her minutes earlier. Pooh on her for being so petty!

I hope he feels better soon!

Nolan still touches the num-nums, usually when he's really tired or needs comforting. And he's 4 1/2...! At two he definitely did but he was still nursing then. After I weaned him, which was mostly just at night to fall asleep, he then had to hold my num-num to fall asleep (we also practice attachment parenting). He doesn't do that anymore but occasionally if he wakes in the night from a bad dream or something, he'll reach over and touch it for a moment, then roll back over and go to sleep.

I think it's totally normal...

ITA w/the others.. Heck, just today Cias stuck his hands down my shirt(while in front of everyone at the lake) and said "Mom, laugh at this!" b/c he was trying to tickle me.. It's just something they do.. And he was't BF...

My best friend BF her son(who is 3 days older than Cias) for 2 years and he still will pat her and rest his head on her boobs for comfort. I think for kids, even non-BF kids, it's the heartbeat, and it happens to be by the boobs.. As for the playing w/them, well, that's just curiousity..