Question How do you respond

bekah

New member
When someone quotes the Freakonomics response to Car Seats. The basic premise is that, when you look at the statistics, a child properly restrained in a seat belt (over age 2) is just as safe as a child properly restrained in a car seat (over age 2).
 
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monica-m

CPST Instructor
I would respond with the fact that the Freakanomics guy's kids ride in car seats. If a 2 year old stayed still like a dummy does then maybe but we all know that typical 2 year olds are all over the place and would never stay in position and once they are out of position they are not safe. There is also tons of crash test data and studies that show otherwise. All you have to do is search Youtube for crash tests with booster car seat or unrestrained and you get tons to choose from.

ETA: No 2 year old will fit properly in a seat belt alone so there is no properly restraining a 2 year old with a seat belt anyway.
 

bekah

New member
Yeah, she basically said that if a 2+ year old was in a booster with the seat belt fitting correctly, it would be just as safe. FWIW, her kids rode in car seats to age 4, and then boosters. Her 6 yo is only 35 lbs though :eek:
 

monica-m

CPST Instructor
A typical 35 lb 6 year old is safe in a booster. They have 6 year old maturity and 6 year old bones. I would not criticize someone for boostering in that situation provided that the 6 year old sat properly.

The theory that a 2 year old would be safe in a well fitting booster is a decent theory however no 2 year old is going to sit properly in a booster at all times which is what is required of a booster rider in order for them to be properly protected. A 2 year old in a booster is a projectile because they are going to be out of that belt quicker than you can react.
 

Jan06twinmom

New member
When someone quotes the Freakonomics response to Car Seats. The basic premise is that, when you look at the statistics, a child properly restrained in a seat belt (over age 2) is just as safe as a child properly restrained in a car seat (over age 2).

"That's nice in theory. However, we are talking about real toddlers here who move and act like 2 year olds. How many 2 year olds do you know who can sit properly for a drive in the car?"
 

Pixels

New member
"Crash test dummies sit still. Put them in a car, walk away, come back three days later, they're still there, exactly as you left them. Two year olds don't stay still for three seconds, let alone long enough for you to drive around the block."
 

bekah

New member
Good point about the booster of her 6 yo.

I think she is pointing to the facts about crash fatalities. She said that since the kids are real kids and kids in car seats die in about 10% of reported crashes and kids using seat belts die in about 10% of reported crashes, that they are the same.

It did give me something to think about. I just like that in a harness my child is positioned correctly near to 100% of the time. But I see her point and even mentioned that, technically, my child would have been just as safe in a seat belt from age 2 on ward because I've never been in an accident, the problem is that I'm not willing to risk it if we DO get in an accident. But she also make me think about boosters differently and I might just be more okay with boosters now.
 

jjordan

Moderator
Good point about the booster of her 6 yo.

I think she is pointing to the facts about crash fatalities. She said that since the kids are real kids and kids in car seats die in about 10% of reported crashes and kids using seat belts die in about 10% of reported crashes, that they are the same. It did give me something to think about. I just like that in a harness my child is positioned correctly near to 100% of the time. But I see her point and even mentioned that, technically, my child would have been just as safe in a seat belt from age 2 on ward because I've never been in an accident, the problem is that I'm not willing to risk it if we DO get in an accident. But she also make me think about boosters differently and I might just be more okay with boosters now.

If that is what she's going on then the easiest answer is that a VERY high percentage of car seats aren't used properly (I've seen estimates from 80% and on up over 90%). So... let's say 1000 2 year olds are in car seats and 1000 2 year olds are in adult seat belts. Of the 1000 in seat belts, 100 die (10%). Of the 1000 in car seats, 900 of those seats are being used improperly (90%), making them no safer than a seat belt, and 90 of them die (10%). Of the 100 using their car seat correctly, let's suppose that 3% of the crashes were unsurvivable (I'm making this number up). So 3 of those kids die, and you have a total of 93 that were in car seats dying. So you're comparing 9.3% in car seats dying to 10% in seat belts dying, and yes, it doesn't look like there's much difference in the death rates.

I may be misremembering, but wasn't part of the point of the Freakonomics thing the idea that car seats should be easier to use correctly so that they would make more of a difference? I vaguely remember hearing something like that when it first came out.
 

KaiLing

New member
My first response is also that my kid doesn't act like a crash test dummy.

I have, however, also responded with international facts. The Swedish comparison is not perfect, but they do have real world data on RF vs FF that we don't that points to RF being safer, period. And I HATE that the freakonomics guys ignored it completely. Somewhere in that article is some phrasing like "we put a 3 year old dummy and a 6 year old dummy though crash tests both with car seats and in seat belts and the results were gruesome." I can't vouch for the 6 year old dummy, but I'm pretty sure if they put the 3 year old dummy in a RF car seat the results would not be gruesome. Most American 3 year olds can fit in RF seats now, and they're not only expensive ones. So my response, for the lower age bracket is basically: "Well, if you believe that, I'd be happy to help you purchase and install a Scenera 40 RF / MyRide / CA RF in your car."

This is an ok response for me because if someone wants to talk to me about the difficulties of comparing little Sweden to giant US, I'm happy to discuss it further. If you don't want to open that can of worms, I'm behind you 100%.
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
freakanomics has said that the statistics show that when you factor in misuse... because 90% of seats are installed or used incorrectly.

they are advocating for better options... options most of us want to see... really good built-in harnessed seats and boosters... easy to use rearfacing seats (which may or may not be built in)

Much like everything, it's all how one person interprets it... the way to interpret it properly is to realize that you have to be sure your seats are installed properly and used properly every time... otherwise, the seat is doing little to nothing to protect your child.
 

bekah

New member
Thank you! I think the point about the car being installed correctly is important. And I know they did factor that in and it was about a 1% difference, but I also think that I'd rather have that 1% on my side!
 

mommycat

Well-known member
The other thing I would bring up is that fatalities is not the only issue. Even if the number of deaths is similar, the number and severity of INJURIES is likely very different. A smaller child in a booster, with immature bone structure, unable to sit still and at risk for submarining etc, will likely come out of a crash with abdominal and other injuries that a harnessed child is more likely to avoid. (I don't have stats to quote but I'm convinced someone does and that is a factor to consider.)
 

smackeen

New member
The other thing I would bring up is that fatalities is not the only issue. Even if the number of deaths is similar, the number and severity of INJURIES is likely very different. A smaller child in a booster, with immature bone structure, unable to sit still and at risk for submarining etc, will likely come out of a crash with abdominal and other injuries that a harnessed child is more likely to avoid. (I don't have stats to quote but I'm convinced someone does and that is a factor to consider.)

Exactly what I was thinking. I would imagine that injury reports would be A LOT different versus death reports. Also, with the death reports, how many of those reports would be classified as unsurvivable?
 

mlohry

New member
I hate that book. A good friend of mine that never properly uses car seats, put DD FF in the before she was the right size. Turned her FF after her Ped and I both told her it was safer to RF. Put her 3 year old in a no back booster even though I told her it was better to at least by a backed booster. Installs the seat SO loosely that you can move it with a finger. Straps are always twisted and the chest clip is way too low and I moved the harness up on it, just because it was beyond too low.

That dumb book justifies horrible car seat use. That part should be banned.
 

Defrost

Moderator - CPSTI Emeritus
I've replied with "Did you know that 90% of all murderers ate BREAD within 12 hours of killing their victims?!" That leads to discussion about how statistics is all about how the numbers are interpreted, correlation doesn't equal causation, etc.

Sometimes I'll talk about how in my boyfriend's wreck, 75% of the unrestrained passengers walked away in spite of one of them being ejected from the vehicle, and only my boyfriend was severely injured (and he wasn't the one ejected). Because even if 1 out of 4 doesn't sound that bad, for that ONE person, it was 100% - and if they'd all taken three seconds to buckle their seat belts, they'd ALL have walked away. But I don't bring that up much IRL because it's too personal and I'm prone to get weepy or defensive.
 

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