So what is the SKJP Radian SL "drama"

Belle's Mamma

New member
So I haven't been on C-S.org for a few months now so I've been out of the loop. I've read several posts that mention some issue with the Super Latch Radians but haven't been able to actually find out what the issue is. I've been searching for over an hour and I'll I've found was a lot of mamas who won't use Radian SLs. I'm completely exhausted and the more I look the less I find. Both of my LOs (DD is 4yo. 37"&29lbs; DS is 2.5yo 34"&32lbs) are RFing in Radian XTSLs in our 2003 Chrystler T&C. I obviously don't want them riding in seats that could have safety issues and I do have a pair of Nautis and if there is an issue with the XTSLs that affected us I can get another RFing seat. Ok, I'm exhausted and am babbling...so, if anyone can give me input on what is going on I would GREATLY appreciate it.

TIA :)
 
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ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Slipping of the SL strap occurs in some vehicles because of the placement of the adjuster. Sometimes immediately, sometimes over time, sometimes as a kid rests a foot on the adjuster. Not an issue in all vehicles, just some. If you're worried, switch to seatbelt installs.

There seems to be a limited batch that had a slipping harness as well, but not many, and that should be pretty readily apparent if you tug on a buckled harness and it loosens, or you find it loose after a trip. Only people who got them during a certain period seemed to have this problem, it was pretty limited. The SL strap thing is a design flaw.
 

Stelvis

New member
You can watch the video in my signature and there are several other good videos on YouTube of the same thing.

People are upset not just because it happened (let's face it, any manufacturer can have a defect), but because of how poorly their customer service has treated people with the problem. I got an epic runaround from them and no solution, and a rude letter from the president of the company telling me that they wouldn't give me my money back.

Also this thread has a lot of the details, but it's long: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=168414
 

firemomof3

New member
I didn't have any problems with my XTSL in my minivan over the years, but I did check it each and everytime I used it because so many were having problems.
 

Belle's Mamma

New member
Yikes! I haven't experienced either problem yet but I'll go ahead and do a seat belt install proactively to be on the safe side.

The harness slipping issue only occurs when the RN is FF right?

Thank you ladies :)
 
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Stelvis

New member
I'm not sure whether the harness issue is only FF. You could try searching the NHTSA complaints database to see what the scenarios were for the people that it happened to.
 

KaiLing

New member
Is the SL loosening issue both RF and FF? I was under the impression the complaints were all RF but can't find reference to that now...
 

luckyclov

New member
I haven't had any issues with my SL straps loosening. But I did switch to seatbelt install. Since it's not the primary seat and is used very infrequently, I may actually reinstall it with the SL and just see what it does over time.

SKJP customer service isn't fantastic. They frequently have reps, who shall remain nameless, who advise you go to against what is clearly stated in the manual. And others who just seem to pull stuff outta thin air. It's frustrating.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I'm not sure whether the harness issue is only FF. You could try searching the NHTSA complaints database to see what the scenarios were for the people that it happened to.

The slipping harnesses that I've seen have actually been due to the way the cover is stitched. I'm aware of it happening both directions. The ones I've seen basically the adjuster access hole is smaller than the lever, and if the child's feet are in the "right" place it can put enough pressure on the cover for it to hold the adjuster up and allow the harness to loosen. If the adjuster is pushed down in to place it stays locked, it's just that the cover is naturally in the way because of the size of the hole. They could easily remedy the slipping harnesses by sending out covers with bigger holes for accessing the harness adjuster.

Yikes! I haven't experienced either problem yet but I'll go ahead and do a seat belt install proactively to be on the safe side.

The harness slipping issue only occurs when the RN is FF right?

Thank you ladies :)

If your SL isn't slipping then there's no reason to switch to belt unless you want to. The adjuster mechanisms themselves aren't defective based on what I've seen thus far, it's mainly an angle issue - like with a lap only belt that is sitting on an angle, or light-weight locking latchplates like you have in your van. The shape of the boot is such that the latchplate naturally wants to rest on an angle, and when that happens, it makes it more prone to slipping. So if yours hasn't slipped and you're checking each time, you really don't have anything to worry about.

I've followed a lot of the SL threads and I'm not doing any extra parental education on seats with SL beyond "check your seat for tightness every time." And that is education that should be done with every seat anyways. If I notice it is on an angle when it's installed I will check for movement with more force just in case it's going to slip, but if it's holding tight when it's installed and the angle of the latchplate isn't an issue, I have no concerns based on what I've seen to this point. The secondary issue of children's feet loosening the seat is just as much a behaviour thing as a design thing, it's just unfortunate that it's so easy for them to do.
 

Meg

Well-known member
I've read several posts that mention some issue with the Super Latch Radians but haven't been able to actually find out what the issue is. I've been searching for over an hour and I'll I've found was a lot of mamas who won't use Radian SLs.

I'm one of the few who had an issue with the harness slipping and pulling out. It was a one time issue where the adjuster must have gotten stuck, which resulted in the harness being able to pull out. After reporting the issue to SKJP, they had no problem shipping me out a replacement seat free of charge. However, as long as you tighten the harness and then make sure the adjuster lever is back down, I don't see it being any type of issue. As far as the Super LATCH, we've never had any issues and I've had the seat installed with LATCH FF and RF in about 3 different cars. I wouldn't be using the seats if I thought they were unsafe. :thumbsup:
 

Stelvis

New member
snowbird25ca said:
The slipping harnesses that I've seen have actually been due to the way the cover is stitched. I'm aware of it happening both directions. The ones I've seen basically the adjuster access hole is smaller than the lever, and if the child's feet are in the "right" place it can put enough pressure on the cover for it to hold the adjuster up and allow the harness to loosen. If the adjuster is pushed down in to place it stays locked, it's just that the cover is naturally in the way because of the size of the hole. They could easily remedy the slipping harnesses by sending out covers with bigger holes for accessing the harness adjuster.

If your SL isn't slipping then there's no reason to switch to belt unless you want to. The adjuster mechanisms themselves aren't defective based on what I've seen thus far, it's mainly an angle issue - like with a lap only belt that is sitting on an angle, or light-weight locking latchplates like you have in your van. The shape of the boot is such that the latchplate naturally wants to rest on an angle, and when that happens, it makes it more prone to slipping. So if yours hasn't slipped and you're checking each time, you really don't have anything to worry about.

I've followed a lot of the SL threads and I'm not doing any extra parental education on seats with SL beyond "check your seat for tightness every time." And that is education that should be done with every seat anyways. If I notice it is on an angle when it's installed I will check for movement with more force just in case it's going to slip, but if it's holding tight when it's installed and the angle of the latchplate isn't an issue, I have no concerns based on what I've seen to this point. The secondary issue of children's feet loosening the seat is just as much a behaviour thing as a design thing, it's just unfortunate that it's so easy for them to do.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the foot loosening issue. It is much easier for the child to accomplish this when the latch plate is at an angle to the webbing, as happened to me. It is probably close to impossible for a child to do this if it's not on a poor angle. If you see an install where it is on that angle, in my non-tech opinion, you should not be letting people drive away with an install like that, or you should at least be warning them.

That tilt-lock should be super hard to loosen, according to SKJP it should take two hands and a bunch of body weight, but when it's on an angle, it's not. My child wasn't exerting any great force on the adjustor, he wasn't angry and kicking and screaming, he was just sort of resting his foot/toe there because it's a natural ledge, and over the course of a car ride, that would loosen it. I checked for movement at the belt path, and it was always acceptably tight that way until he started resting his foot there.

I have to wonder how my install would have held up in a rollover or side impact crash if that minor amount of pressure was all it took to loosen the LATCH.

So I would say it's not clearly a behavioral issue like a child opening their chest clip. It is a design flaw, and parents should be made aware of it. I knew enough to check for tightness at the belt path, and I did so routinely for over a year before I started having problems. And it was very easy for my son to uninstall the seat with minor pressure from his foot, while I was driving. Checking before I started my drive was not enough to keep him safe. That should not be. The push button style adjustors are MUCH harder to loosen, and I am completely sure he would never have been able to get one of those open.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the foot loosening issue. It is much easier for the child to accomplish this when the latch plate is at an angle to the webbing, as happened to me. It is probably close to impossible for a child to do this if it's not on a poor angle. If you see an install where it is on that angle, in my non-tech opinion, you should not be letting people drive away with an install like that, or you should at least be warning them.

That tilt-lock should be super hard to loosen, according to SKJP it should take two hands and a bunch of body weight, but when it's on an angle, it's not. My child wasn't exerting any great force on the adjustor, he wasn't angry and kicking and screaming, he was just sort of resting his foot/toe there because it's a natural ledge, and over the course of a car ride, that would loosen it. I checked for movement at the belt path, and it was always acceptably tight that way until he started resting his foot there.

I have to wonder how my install would have held up in a rollover or side impact crash if that minor amount of pressure was all it took to loosen the LATCH.

So I would say it's not clearly a behavioral issue like a child opening their chest clip. It is a design flaw, and parents should be made aware of it. I knew enough to check for tightness at the belt path, and I did so routinely for over a year before I started having problems. And it was very easy for my son to uninstall the seat with minor pressure from his foot, while I was driving. Checking before I started my drive was not enough to keep him safe. That should not be. The push button style adjustors are MUCH harder to loosen, and I am completely sure he would never have been able to get one of those open.

I certainly don't feel that you have to agree with me, but as a very experienced tech and instructor, I am able to tell when the latchplate is on an angle. Parents are given enough information at a seat check without being given information that isn't applicable to their situation and is likely to only cause unnecessary panic and doubt in the seat they have purchased for their child.

There is no benefit to the public in creating panic and doubt. In a collision the seat would first be moving away from the seat back in most cases. That movement would be a direction of pull that shouldn't cause a latchplate to slip if it wasn't on an angle to start with, so I'm not surprised that SK hasn't replicated the problem in their testing.

I've said it many times already, but lap belts can end up in the same situation. And some lap belts are very easy to loosen. In those instances - where you simply can't get the lap belt to stay locked, you have to choose another seating position in the vehicle as the seat is incompatible in that position.

This is different because it's the LATCH belt and that is going to move with the seat from one vehicle to the other. But the bare bone functioning part of the locking mechanism is identical to a lap belt. The seats that I have seen that have slipped while installed do not slip when you do a straight pull test, and that indicates a normally functioning locking latchplate. There is a higher rate of compatibility issues with it which is an issue, but parental education on checking for tightness and the experienced eye of a technician to recognize when the latchplate is on an angle are enough that I don't feel parents at check events should be told that some seats out there are able to easily loosen if a kid puts their foot on the adjuster. Some seatbelts can easily be unbuckled if the kid pushes their foot on the release button - that doesn't mean the vehicle has a defect. Granted it also doesn't automatically mean there isn't a defect.

It's unfortunate that this is affecting so many seat/vehicle combos - especially given that the radian is a seat with lots of room for the bigger rf'ing kids. The good thing is, that the kids who are big enough to be putting their feet down and pushing on it are probably also nearing the age of understanding to not do it.

I have asked some questions regarding lap only belts to try and determine if there is a minimum pressure requirement on the latchplate that needs to be required before it can lengthen. From what I have been told - to the best of this person's knowledge, there is no minimum pressure requirement on lap only belts for when the latchplate is on an angle. Given that the slippage is related to the angle the latchplate is sitting at, that's really the only area that I can see any potential for NHTSA to actually force a recall. If it's staying locked when not on an angle, then it's functioning normally.

I'm not trying to minimize your own experience, have watched it since you first posted on it so am quite aware of the things you've encountered with them, and quite frankly, I think that you've had horrible customer service from sunshine kids. But there is a balance when it comes to how much information a parent is given - they can only absorb so much in the short period of time you're dealing with them, and creating undue panic or worry is something I try to avoid. If it's not on an angle to slip, then it's a non-issue. If it is, then the seatbelt gets used. And I would be doing that anyways even without the online complaints regarding the slippage. If one method of installation won't hold a seat tight, you use the other or try a different seating position.

If there are some out there that are slipping when pulled on in a straight direction, then those are the ones to report to NHTSA. The ones that loosen as a result of twisting and tugging just to see if you're able to make it loosen only muddy the waters for the people who are in charge of investigating complaints. If there are true slippages out there that aren't happening because of the latchplate angle or a child's foot, then they're the ones that need to be focused on. To this point though, I'm not aware of any that have slipped when pulled on straight.

This doesn't mean that NHTSA won't find anything - none of us are privy to the exact investigations and procedures that go on behind closed doors and maybe they'll find an issue that the public isn't aware of for all we know. But the latchplate issue - when related to angle, isn't something I'm going to be talking about with parents. There are more important things they need to remember than something that isn't relevant or applicable to their own situation. If they're taught the basics and are checking for movement every trip, then they'll catch slight slippage before it is an issue in the event they change vehicles - and potential for future problems in some random vehicle also falls in to the category of something that shouldn't be addressed with a parent right off the bat.

Just my honest 2 cents. I don't expect you to agree, and I understand that you're frustrated and angry both with having had your seat loosen and the fear that comes with that, as well as the treatment that you've received from SK. Those are valid complaints. You and other parents really haven't received good customer service over this. But that doesn't mean that every parent needs to have fear put in to them, or that seatbelt installs should be needlessly used when they're often a lot harder for a parent to replicate. :twocents:
 

Stelvis

New member
I'd just add that as far as I know, SKJP is still telling people that it's impossible for what happened to me to happen if the SL is tight to begin with. They don't seem to be making up weird solutions like duct tape anymore either, however. If they would acknowledge that the angle is an issue in many installs and issue a statement about it, that would be a good start.

If you're not letting people drive away with tilt-locks that are at an angle that allows them to loosen easily, that's great! I do understand your point about not overwhelming people with information. I'm sure you're using your training to make the best decisions you can to help people keep their children safe. I don't see how, if the webbing is coming out of the adjustor flat, it could cause an issue with a child's foot being able to loosen it and I wouldn't be concerned with that. But, I still maintain that if it's at an angle, checking for tightness at the belt path is not enough to ensure that it's truly safe. With a seatbelt, you can always turn the buckle stalk around so the kid's foot can't reach it.

My son just figured out how to open it at 2.5, but I'm sure his legs were long enough to have done so much earlier -- maybe even before 2. Behavior modification only works so well with a child that young, especially if you can't see them at the moment they're doing it. The reason I don't think he did it earlier is that I used the car's fold down cupholder for him and it happened to sort of block the tilt-lock. Then we got a warm day and he took his shoe off and wiggled his foot down in there. It wasn't until a few days later when I happened to be riding in back with him that I actually saw how he was doing what he was doing.
 

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