Curiousity question: why no LATCH in center?

KaiLing

New member
A rather concerned friend had me glance at her FF seat after she connected the top tether (because I sent her the carseatblog article), and the seat was both too loose and she'd used the LATCH in the center of the Subaru. Which made me wonder, what's up with LATCH in the center? Specifically:

1. is something keeping most car manufacturers from putting in another set?

2. What's going on with seats not working with borrowed LATCHes? My guess is that the seats themselves are just too narrow: if they were big enough at the base then they would be too big for the car.

3. What is the outcome of people mistakenly using the LATCH in the center--is it just a seat too loose, or do the crash forces do something really weird to the seats, pulling the bases outward or something?

I just felt bad, because this is a woman who clearly didn't read the seat's manual well, but she read it, and her perception was that the middle is safer and that LATCH is safer, so she put the seat in the middle with LATCH. That's gotta be a pretty common set of perceptions among people who care but aren't detail oriented.
 
ADS

Cryssy Jane

New member
I see a lot of the third. Shoot I once was of that mindset. Latch is drilled so much in commercials I figured latch and a center instal are best. Little did I know Subaru has never allowed a center latch install and while you can install a car seat center with seatbelt, they tell you in the vehicle manual it's advised against.

Sent from my iPhone using Car-Seat.Org
 

Pixels

New member
My brother and I both drive Hondas. He wasn't satisfied with "I don't know why, but the manufacturer says not to do it, so don't" answer, and did more research. What he found is that the lower anchors are reinforced in pairs. If you are looking at the back seat, and label the lower anchors going across, A and B are for the passenger seat, C and D are for the driver's side seat. There is a bar or something between A and B, and something between C and D, but nothing between B and C. So if you borrow the inner anchors to create your own center LATCH, in a crash B and C can both move towards the center of the vehicle, leaving your previously-tight install loose.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
__A__B__ [empty space] __C__D__

Anchor pair A&B are anchored to a steel bar, as are anchor pair C&D. Anchor pair B&C are not actually anchored to anything, since there is nothing connecting B&C. An anchor that really isn't anchored will not hold a carseat.
 

ninejr

New member
Pixels said:
My brother and I both drive Hondas. He wasn't satisfied with "I don't know why, but the manufacturer says not to do it, so don't" answer, and did more research. What he found is that the lower anchors are reinforced in pairs. If you are looking at the back seat, and label the lower anchors going across, A and B are for the passenger seat, C and D are for the driver's side seat. There is a bar or something between A and B, and something between C and D, but nothing between B and C. So if you borrow the inner anchors to create your own center LATCH, in a crash B and C can both move towards the center of the vehicle, leaving your previously-tight install loose.

Is this just for Honda? Do the vehicles that allow you to borrow have the anchors in differently? Just wondering as our vehicle allows for a B_C install as long as the carseat manufacture allows for non standard width.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Is this just for Honda? Do the vehicles that allow you to borrow have the anchors in differently? Just wondering as our vehicle allows for a B_C install as long as the carseat manufacture allows for non standard width.

Yes, if the manufacturer allows center install, you can safely assume that the anchors are anchored properly.
 

Qarin

New member
This is a picture of me holding a 2005 Toyota (corolla? i forget now) LATCH bar. I believe this one is meant for the driver side (I'm pointing to where an L is etched onto it- that may be an orientation note for the bar itself and not meaning it belongs on the left side of the vehicle, but I'm pretty sure the other had an R), though it was shoved into the bight of the seat on the passenger side, while another one was loosely bolted with one bolt on the driver side:

2005toyotalatchbar.jpg


I suspect that, though the bar connection might make a difference, that the main reason it's not allowed is because in most cars the manufacturer can't get a required spacing, and/or that they don't want to bother testing it (and, untested, we don't know how that car's system would do).
 

KaiLing

New member
This is a picture of me holding a 2005 Toyota (corolla? i forget now) LATCH bar. I believe this one is meant for the driver side (I'm pointing to where an L is etched onto it- that may be an orientation note for the bar itself and not meaning it belongs on the left side of the vehicle, but I'm pretty sure the other had an R), though it was shoved into the bight of the seat on the passenger side, while another one was loosely bolted with one bolt on the driver side:
Whoa, so it was improperly installed? How did you find out? That's pretty horrible.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity, folks. :)
 

menfusse

New member
This is something I wasn't aware of several years ago, when E was a baby. We had a Ford Taurus. The manual said nothing about it at all, whether you could or could not borrow. The spacing was actually standard because they were so offset in the outboard position. I called, and after talking to several people, was told I was allowed to borrow. Now I have no idea if I was talking to anybody that had a clue as to what they were telling me.

Our Jeep actually had center LATCH which was one of the only redeeming qualities of that vehicle. It had 3 separate LATCH anchors in the second row. Not that you could actually do a 3 across, but it was nice to have that option.
 

Qarin

New member
Whoa, so it was improperly installed? How did you find out? That's pretty horrible.

We don't know what happened, but we went to consider a LATCH install on the passenger side and couldn't find the loop on one side and it felt loose on the other. I dug around a bit and discovered the bar completely uninstalled, no bolts at all. The driver side felt loose, also, and digging I found there was one loose bolt and one completely lacking a bolt.
 

mylittlet

Senior Community Member
I am just going to caps my answers. I'm not yelling anyone, but I can't change the color.

1. is something keeping most car manufacturers from putting in another set? I THINK IT IS SOMETIMES SPACE. LOWER ANCHORS ARE A SET SPACE APART. SO THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE SPACE TO PUT ANOTHER SET IN. ALSO, THEY ARE ONLY REQUIRED TO PUT IN 2 LOW ANCHOR SETS. SO SOME DO ONLY THE MINIMUM.

2. What's going on with seats not working with borrowed LATCHes? My guess is that the seats themselves are just too narrow: if they were big enough at the base then they would be too big for the car. EITHER THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TESTED THAT WAY OR THEY HAVE AND FAILED.

3. What is the outcome of people mistakenly using the LATCH in the center--is it just a seat too loose, or do the crash forces do something really weird to the seats, pulling the bases outward or something? WE DON'T KNOW. SO THE CHILD IN THE SET BECOMES THE CRASH DUMBIE, WHICH IS WHAT WE DON'T WANT TO HAPPEN.

I recently helped with a complete air in a ford explorer. The complete air allows borrowing and ford allows it, so we did LATCH in the center. It fit great.

I just know when I get a Honda it is not allowed, so I don't even check the carseat.

Stefanie - CPStech in Iowa
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
That's my left hand in the picture Qarin posted. I'm glad she did, I was going to go and find it. I'm glad I took the picture. That car was screwed up on the LATCH front.

In addition to what people have said, the LATCH is required to be 11" apart. For a lot of cars it's easier on the manufacturer (they're required by law to have two sets in a five passenger vehicle, and three sets in a seven passenger) if they just do it outboard only that means they can do one set of R&D and then mirror it on the opposite side. Rather than spend more money on doing R&D for the center when it's not required, and often smaller and more difficult to fit the 11" in.

Some do. http://thecarseatlady.blogspot.com/2010/06/center-latch-not-always-oxymoron-2010.html But most don't. Heck, my car hasn't got a middle. LOL

Wendy
 

smileybrea

CPS Technician
I bought my car (2007 Dodge Charger) before I knew much about CSS and I love that it has center LATCH anchors. I didn't realize how uncommon that was until I started doing checks.
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
I know it has to do with spacing... some cars that have center latch are pretty typical (like my dh's chevy cobalt

with the setup of A_______A B_______B C_______C

but others have weird setups where they overlap... like A BA CB C
or A BA BC C or the reverse... you get the idea.

I just would never want to go against the manufacturer rules for where you can install because they've safety tested the stuff and I'm not using my child as a test dummy.
 

Pixels

New member
This is something I wasn't aware of several years ago, when E was a baby. We had a Ford Taurus. The manual said nothing about it at all, whether you could or could not borrow. The spacing was actually standard because they were so offset in the outboard position. I called, and after talking to several people, was told I was allowed to borrow. Now I have no idea if I was talking to anybody that had a clue as to what they were telling me.

Our Jeep actually had center LATCH which was one of the only redeeming qualities of that vehicle. It had 3 separate LATCH anchors in the second row. Not that you could actually do a 3 across, but it was nice to have that option.

The Taurus has three full designated sets of LATCH. You can use either the two outboard sets, or the one center set, but not all three at a time because you can't put more than one child restraint on the same anchor. The center of the Taurus is a designated LATCH position, so not borrowing at all. :)

That's my left hand in the picture Qarin posted. I'm glad she did, I was going to go and find it. I'm glad I took the picture. That car was screwed up on the LATCH front.

In addition to what people have said, the LATCH is required to be 11" apart. For a lot of cars it's easier on the manufacturer (they're required by law to have two sets in a five passenger vehicle, and three sets in a seven passenger) if they just do it outboard only that means they can do one set of R&D and then mirror it on the opposite side. Rather than spend more money on doing R&D for the center when it's not required, and often smaller and more difficult to fit the 11" in.

Some do. http://thecarseatlady.blogspot.com/2010/06/center-latch-not-always-oxymoron-2010.html But most don't. Heck, my car hasn't got a middle. LOL

Wendy

Source?
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician

Yeah, I thought there was a requirement to have two, period.

As for vehicles that allow borrowing vs. those that don't, given what little emphasis most manufacturers seem to put on child passenger safety, I'm not convinced that vehicles that allow borrowing have necessarily tested it vs. figuring it's fine. On the other hand, I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with it and figure that some manufacturers are just overly cautious.

Without knowing the details of internal decision-making, though, it's best to follow manufacturer instructions.
 

Pixels

New member
I skimmed over FMVSS 225, and it only requires two in any vehicle with at least two back seating positions. There is at least one entry in the LATCH manual for a 2011 7-passenger vehicle with only two LATCH positions.
 

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