What would you do?

bnsnyde · May 24, 2011

Would you trust Superlatch in a compatible vehicle? Yes, I'd get a whole new $$$ seat (in Shadow color, I guess) and the newest version (so don't want to discuss loosening issues again).

I can't use latch past 40 lbs. in the Honda and HAVE to seatbelt install. But I can use superlatch to 80 lbs?
You see my concern? That above leaves it totally up to the latch strap and doesn't bring into consideration Honda's latch bar at all. I don't want the bar failing in a crash.

How can a parent make this decision? It's tough! I either trust SL or do the poor seatbelt install.

So, any reason I should not get the SL seat if I can use it properly? I really want the steel frame of the Radian and seatbelt install is not an option (already established that in another thread). Or, if another high-harness seat is about to hit the market, let me know. (I could use the Frontier 85 with seatbelt but again, I want the steel frame while it still fits my kid (nearly 5). I LIKE the Radians a lot. And my kids do.

Meg · May 24, 2011

Yes, I would. I haven't had any issues with the SL in my cars, so I have no qualms about using it despite others who have had issues. My kids have never put their feet down by the LATCH and I've never had the seat loosen from normal usage in my car. SKJP is currently sending me a new seat (we had an issue unrelated to the SL), and it will be installed with SL when I put it in my car.

ctbcleveland · May 24, 2011

I would not trust super-latch to 80 lbs. I would be comfortable using it slightly beyond Honda's very conservative 40 lb limit to maybe a higher limit more consistent with other vehicle manufacturers - IDK, 48 lbs maybe?

I know you've mentioned your inability to use a seatbelt. Is there a possible scenario where you could move seats around to get your radians in your captains chairs? I have a 2010 Ody and they fit awesome there with a seatbelt. I've not tried anything in the third row.

I probably missed your thread about what is going on with your third row. Hopefully you've been able to trouble shoot with some other people on the board more familiar with the 2011 Odyssey to confirm there aren't any tricks to improve your seatbelt installs there. If there is anything you'd like me to try, I would be happy to, but again, I have a 2010, so there might be differences in the third row.

ETA - my opinion on Super Latch hasn't changed since the SL problems arose. I just am not comfortable going against my vehicle's recommendation by double the weigh. While I know Honda is super conservative, I don't have confidence that the SL testing considered every possible vehicle and LATCH system.

luckyclov · May 24, 2011

No, I wouldn't.
Not if I could avoid it. And definitely not up to 80 lbs.

To me, the issue with SL loosening is widespread enough that I'm not convinced it's purely a vehicle incompatibility issue. And SKJP has lost a decent amount of credibility with me over the last few weeks. Having a rep state you need atleast 1.5" of shell over the head for RF'ing, when the manual "states" otherwise and the general across-the-board rule is 1", was the icing on the cake for me.

I like my Radians and I will continue to use them, but I will not install them using SL. Or LATCH straps at all, for that matter.

Stelvis · May 24, 2011

Not to rain on your parade, but SKJP's new belts are still not working for many of us. There is no difference at all in the ease with which my old and new straps loosen. (And yes I have the new "retainer clip") And I have an Acura which is basically a Honda. So if I were you I'd make sure to buy from somewhere that you can return it, and don't buy direct from SKJP as they won't take your return if you have an SL issue.

Here's my latest video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULM7Ahmui74&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]YouTube - ‪Radian Superlatch Failure Retainer Clip.m4v‬‏[/ame]

bnsnyde · May 24, 2011

We would not get to 80 lbs.

My child is 45 lbs and 45 inches and it would be until he outgrows the seat. So he'd be 50 or 60 something, perhaps, but I am guessing.

As for moving him to a different seating position, not right now. It's very complicated and I balanced keeping the wee ones RF, access to kids, sanity, etc. for 4 kids under age 5. Really need a 12 passenger van, I guess!

ctbcleveland · May 24, 2011

Well - to your specific question, no I wouldn't go to 50 or 60 lbs, but your first post referenced "to 80 lbs".

I quite frankly doubt I will have harnessed kids after 50 lbs. My four year old is 33 pounds and we will probably harness until around 6.

LISmama810 · May 24, 2011

Are you asking from a SL-loosening standpoint or from a can-I-really exceed manufacturer-limits standpoint?

For the former, I'd be fine with it as long as I weren't having issues, especially FF.

For the later...it's hard to say, and my opinion has changed a couple times since SL was introduced.

Mostly I'd say no because it usually is possible to get an acceptable seatbelt install if you work at it hard enough, and why worry about making the decision if you don't need to?

However, if it's not possible to do a seatbelt install, then you do need to decide.

On one hand, I get the logic. LATCH connectors are thought to fail before the anchors, and these are stronger connectors. Supposedly.

Newer cars meet a higher weigh standard, which can support a heavier kid. Supposedly.

At the same time, Sunshine Kids has made--and continues to make--some bizarre statements that clearly go against both logic and safety recommendations... and that was before this whole SL issue arose.

So...do I feel that Honda's LATCH will fail at 41 lbs? No.

Do I feel that Sunshine Kids is absolutely correct in this situation? Well... I don't know. It's neither an emphatic yes nor an emphatic no.

Would I use SL beyond the limits myself? Probably not.

If I were you I'd keep working on the belt.

bnsnyde · May 24, 2011

I agree the belt is best, but I couldn't do it (and I am getting good at this).
The great, detailed review of the 11 Odyssey (written by an expert from this board, forgot the name) could not get a tight install 3rd row outboard on it and had the exact same front to back movement issue that I did. The local seat check techs did no better (actually worse) than I did. I realize sometimes there are simply incompatible seating positions.

And, if we say not to trust to 80 lbs., could this thinking carry over to other situations where we become more conservative? Say, if the seat goes to 45 RF maybe we'd stop at 40 to be safe (but then lose extra RF safety). And does my Britax really go to 70 bs, that sort of thing? At what point can we trust the stats for a given seat? I have no answers. Just always figured I'd use them up to what the box said. (But then I guess we'd have 3-year-olds in boosters). So, I love this forum b/c it provides better insight.

bnsnyde · May 24, 2011

For now I did the seatbelt. I was so mad at the seatbelt I used super-human strength. Is it a perfect install? Well, maybe not.
Is it good? I think so. No side to side motion.

Front to back? Well, yes but that depends how hard you can tug before it's simply tugging too much. Obviously if I yank the thing hard it's going to move front to back. A more gentle pull at the belt path does not give me movement.
For now, I think this is it. I'm done. Happy. And we're following Honda's 40 lb. seatbelt rule.

Meg · May 24, 2011

Stelvis said:
Not to rain on your parade, but SKJP's new belts are still not working for many of us. There is no difference at all in the ease with which my old and new straps loosen. (And yes I have the new "retainer clip") And I have an Acura which is basically a Honda. So if I were you I'd make sure to buy from somewhere that you can return it, and don't buy direct from SKJP as they won't take your return if you have an SL issue.

I've looked at a couple of your videos and it looks like the seat wasn't properly installed to begin with. It looks like the LATCH strap adjuster falls right on the edge of the belt-path, and not parallel to the seat like it needs to be in order for the install to remain tight. I'm assuming your LATCH anchors are right on the bight of your vehicle seats causing this issue? It looks like the seat is incompatible with your car using LATCH because of how poorly it seems to install.

ctbcleveland · May 24, 2011

I have more peace of mind with this solution. Good job mama!

luckyclov · May 24, 2011

ctbcleveland said:
I have more peace of mind with this solution. Good job mama!

:yeahthatlove: *clappy hands* Good job!

Pixels · May 24, 2011

Meg said:
I've looked at a couple of your videos and it looks like the seat wasn't properly installed to begin with. It looks like the LATCH strap adjuster falls right on the edge of the belt-path, and not parallel to the seat like it needs to be in order for the install to remain tight. I'm assuming your LATCH anchors are right on the bight of your vehicle seats causing this issue? It looks like the seat is incompatible with your car using LATCH because of how poorly it seems to install.

Did you not see her check for movement? The seat was tight.

Stelvis · May 24, 2011

Meg said:
I've looked at a couple of your videos and it looks like the seat wasn't properly installed to begin with. It looks like the LATCH strap adjuster falls right on the edge of the belt-path, and not parallel to the seat like it needs to be in order for the install to remain tight. I'm assuming your LATCH anchors are right on the bight of your vehicle seats causing this issue? It looks like the seat is incompatible with your car using LATCH because of how poorly it seems to install.

Yeah, absolutely, that's the issue, but how was I to know that as a parent? I read the manual thoroughly, I watched the official install videos, I checked for movement at the belt path, and it was tight. If the manual said, "your seat is not safely installed unless the webbing is completely flat on both sides of the adjuster even if it appears tight" then I would not have used it. Instead, I used it for a year. Many techs who know more about installing seats than me had the same issue and didn't know it for a long time. God forbid I had gotten in an accident like a rollover or side impact that caused that tilt lock to tip. The margin for error with that base is so small that an inch in either direction is going to cause the adjuster not to work. It's a major design flaw, not an occasional incompatibility. And Hondas seem to be one of the most commonly affected.

I'm not telling OP not to get the seat if you want it, just that it's not necessarily going to work for her even with the new belt, and she should be prepared for that possibility.

Stelvis · May 24, 2011

Meg said:
Yes, I would. I haven't had any issues with the SL in my cars, so I have no qualms about using it despite others who have had issues. My kids have never put their feet down by the LATCH and I've never had the seat loosen from normal usage in my car. SKJP is currently sending me a new seat (we had an issue unrelated to the SL), and it will be installed with SL when I put it in my car.

My kid never put his feet on the LATCH either. Until one day, when he did. You can't know for sure that your child won't do something like that just because they haven't in the past.

ElfJewel · May 24, 2011

bnsnyde said:
For now I did the seatbelt. I was so mad at the seatbelt I used super-human strength. Is it a perfect install? Well, maybe not.
Is it good? I think so. No side to side motion.

Front to back? Well, yes but that depends how hard you can tug before it's simply tugging too much. Obviously if I yank the thing hard it's going to move front to back. A more gentle pull at the belt path does not give me movement.
For now, I think this is it. I'm done. Happy. And we're following Honda's 40 lb. seatbelt rule.

Have you tried installing it with the recline? We installed one of ours FF (in the center) and got a much better install reclined. It didn't slip forward at all. We had a lot of slipping without the recline if we pulled on the harness adjuster.

carseatcoach · May 24, 2011

Since you don't seem to be happy with the Radian installs, I would not spend $300 on another one. I'd buy a seat I was happier with.

Meg · May 24, 2011

Pixels said:
Did you not see her check for movement? The seat was tight.

Yeah, but that's not what I was referring to. I'm talking about where the LATCH plate lies in relation to the beltpath. The poster said she knows it's not in the correct spot, so that's why I was trying to say what happens when she hits, pulls, etc. on the LATCH doesn't seem that relevant if that seat isn't properly installed/secured in the first place. It's been talked a lot before on here. Here's another thread on it. http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=115773

Stelvis said:
Yeah, absolutely, that's the issue, but how was I to know that as a parent? I read the manual thoroughly, I watched the official install videos, I checked for movement at the belt path, and it was tight. If the manual said, "your seat is not safely installed unless the webbing is completely flat on both sides of the adjuster even if it appears tight" then I would not have used it. Instead, I used it for a year. Many techs who know more about installing seats than me had the same issue and didn't know it for a long time.

Yeah, car seats aren't foolproof. I think that's why the rate is something like 8 out of 10 that are used incorrectly. And the issue of the LATCH or seat belt hitting right on the beltpath isn't limited to Radians. I do agree that the Radian is somewhat un-user friendly, so I don't often recommend it.

Stelvis said:
My kid never put his feet on the LATCH either. Until one day, when he did. You can't know for sure that your child won't do something like that just because they haven't in the past.

It's not an issue in my car. We use the Radian for a 3 across set-up and none of the kids are able to fit their hands, let alone their feet into the space where the LATCH connectors are.

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