No, not in all cars. The carseat manuals state that no rearfacing seats can be installed in a seating position with an active airbag. it is possible to have an advanced and no turn swicth airbag deactivated in a shop.
Lena
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Question MT users-does this look right?
- Thread starter LuvMyCharlie
- Start date
No, not in all cars. The carseat manuals state that no rearfacing seats can be installed in a seating position with an active airbag. it is possible to have an advanced and no turn swicth airbag deactivated in a shop.
Lena
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Swedish seats can be braced, regardless of what car you own here in Europe.
Some cars have advanced airbags...reading research papers and stats make a lot more sense to me than a statement.
Oh allmost forgot: Swedish seats and their installation have evolved through in-depth studies of real car crashes among others.
Lena
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Admin
Admin - Webmaster
Theoretical misuse is not the main concern we have been discussing as to why some newer vehicle owners manuals prohibit anything, including carseats, pushing the front vehicle seat forward and/or downward. It is because the sensors for the multi-deployment advanced frontal and side impact airbags are present there and can be fooled if a something applies force to the seat. That is a very real danger to the occupant in the front seat.
There are, however, very practical reasons why bracing may not always be a good idea. I've seen them first hand. A child seat arrives at a check and the parent could not tightly install it with the seatbelt. Their answer was to move the front seat back and then wedge the top of the carseat between the front head restraint and front seat back. Now, the carseat seems secure, but it will still move in a crash initially because the seatbelt is loose and the front vehicle seat back is not a fixed point, so it will also move. In addition, with a loose harness, the child's head is quite likely to slam into the back of the head restraint that is now protruding into the child seat head space.
Sure, in Sweden, with the carseats and vehicles and education present there, bracing may be always recommended, especially in the front seat. In the USA, it may be theoretically beneficial, or at least not harmful, most of the time. The problem is that a blanket statement at how great bracing is can be quite dangerous to an occupant in many cases. Given the great benefits rear-facing provides inherently, the incremental theoretical gain by bracing a RF seat in the back seat of a vehicle in the USA has not been widely endorsed for good reasons. It's better left to be a situational choice by a parent or technician when it is not prohibited by an owner's manual.
The dash is quite different than a seat back. The dash is fixed, while a seatback will move forward in a crash, providing much less potential benefit. The seat back is also much softer than a dash, providing much less risk if the child seat does strike it. Of course, in the USA, we do not advocate placing children in the front seat until they are 13 years old. Obviously, if bracing is allowed or encouraged by the carseat and vehicle owners manuals, then by all means do so. If it is prohibited, then do not. It's rather simple and consistent with what every expert, technician and instructor will state. The manufacturers' instructions are the primary resource for installing the child restraint.
This comment has a lot of very questionable assumptions. I wouldn't stake the life of a child on all these implications about why a manfuacturer chooses to allow or prohibit something. Sure, it could be because they simply don't know or were afraid of potential lawsuits. It could also be because they found it to be dangerous in their own top secret, proprietary testing. Is a child's life worth a guess as to the reason? To advise parents to ignore a very clear instruction from an owner's manual without some first hand, specific information about their situation (that may in some cases justify ignoring some statement or warning) is not only irresponsible, but also puts children in potential danger from a generalization that may not be generally safe.
carseatcoach
Carseat Crankypants
:yeahthatlove:
There's been a lot of advocating for "parental decisions" to ignore clearly stated instructions lately. Yes, parents may have a moral (not legal) right to make decisions for their own children, but I am increasingly uncomfortable with actually encouraging people to do things that are specifically prohibited. It's a huge risk to take with a child's life, especially when there are almost always reasonable alternatives.
Admin said:
This is what I mean
Besides this
All Swedish seats with the exception of two models have support legs and two tethers that you tie to identical points behind the seat and close to the floor. the seats are rock-solid even if you pull the front seat away from them. The MT is one such seat.
Lena
LuvMyCharlie
New member
Wow. This is the most responses I've ever gotten to one of my threads.
Interesting discussion nonetheless.
Interesting discussion nonetheless.
Wow. This is the most responses I've ever gotten to one of my threads.
Interesting discussion nonetheless.
HE HE
Lena
Adventuredad
New member
It's been tested extensively in US and Sweden during many years and nothing has been found which would affect safety negatively.
We try to discuss this very little or never not to discourage a great installation. But lets discuss it briefly. One of the greatest benefits of rear facing seats is the "forgiving" installation. Many mistakes can be made while installing but unless a rear facing car seat is installed upside down it will provide unbelievable safety.
The worst installed rear facing seats is still far safer than the safest forward facing seat. We see this during research but more importantly in real life. Swedish parents do unfortunately not install seats perfectly, like most other parents, and make many mistakes. Safety for rear facing seats is still unbelievable. We see this very clearly in our very detailed crash statistics.
I agree. It's unfortunate that US does not allow deactivation of airbags in front seats. What's perceived (in US), as saving lives is instead causing injuries and deaths.
The US legal system, with the ridiculous lawsuits, is known to work very poorly. It's no debate about that. When all things are equal and the manuals and advice is completely different in US it's easy to understand why. We see this with any product, not only car seats. Overall it makes safety in the country, like car safety, worse since it can't really be discussed without encountering problems with ridiculous lawsuits by people/lawyers looking for money.
LOL!
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LISmama810
Admin - CPS Technician
Adventuredad said:
But advanced airbags are a fairly new technology, so what may have been true "many years" ago may no longer be.
In addition, we've had engineers from Honda and Toyota specifically say that their findings COULD negatively impact safety. (Safety of the front seat occupants, at least.)
Adventuredad
New member
We don't ride around on donkeys over here Except for research we also have real life experience with bracing. It's very common today.
If bracing doesn't feel like a good idea then it's perhaps good not do do it.
Enjoy your weekend!
Except for research we also have real life experience with bracing. It's very common today.If bracing doesn't feel like a good idea then it's perhaps good not do do it.
Enjoy your weekend!
newyorkDOC
New member
I was not making assumptions or implying that parents should go against manufacturer's instructions. In fact I myself follow both britax's and toyota's instructions. I was just clarifying lena's comment since your response seemed to imply that britax (or any other manufacturer that recommends bracing in one region but not in another) does so despite knowing it's not safe. But perhaps I misinterpreted your original response.Admin said:
Morganthe
New member
Okay, this is about the 4th or 5th time I've seen this complaint about the US legal system being overburdened with ridiculous frivolous lawsuits. It's a bunch of baloney. Yes, there are "stupid" lawsuits, but there are much more who are trying to gain compensation or change how a business markets its products for the good of the consumer. Proportionately, these 'ridiculous' lawsuits are highly outnumbered by legitimate counterparts.
It's the only recourse left to many 'average' citizens to change business practices or products or outcomes, such as severe pollution. Take a business law course and discover how difficult it can be for government to regulate or an average person to receive a decent response from a private corporation these days. US laws have drastically changed in the past 15 years to heavily favor and protect the corporate world.
The only other recourse there is would be to impliment a much more restrictive government "allowing" products to enter the market. Which is intollerable to the vast majority of the nation's citizenry. Sweden is the size of many single states. It's also heavily bureacratic. There are lawsuits there too. Nothing like the proportion of the US, but compared between the population of 305 million to 9.4 million. Denmark is even smaller -- 5 million est -- so of course the perception that the US court system is rampantly out of control would be easily held by people living in those two quiet countries. There's probably more lawsuits involved in California in a single day than in Stockholm within a single year. Doesn't mean it's crap. It's that our nation is so HUGE in comparison.
I believe you also are from Mexico. 112 million -- It's closer in size to the US. What are its country like for legal consumer protection & companies in comparison to Sweden or the US? I have a perception that corruption is endemic and average citizens like myself would not receive any chance in gaining recourse through a lawsuit based on product safety violations.
What do you think? Are lawsuits useful, common, or non-existent because people are happy or that they're not a realistic option for change or compensation?
You can introduce annecdotes of 50+ different legal cases deemed by you to be frivolous or crap. You will still not touch upon the sheer amount of hard work and filings for those cases which are based on actual facts necessitating the primary recourse for non-criminal activity left to the citizenry. There are hundreds upon hundreds because we're a nation of MILLIONS.
Can it be improved on? Yes. Will it? Probably not. Likely because we're a nation made up of many peoples with varying philosophies on where government and businesses and consumer products and safety and responsibilities and compensation and marketing practices... etc..
It's complicated. So much more so than just by chalking i t all up to easy frivolous lawsuits as the blame for everything wrong with instruction manuals.
I think that when AD says "bracing" is safe, he means it for the kid in the carseat. While others object to it because of a possible safety issue with the front seat passenger. Am I right?
I would like to know whether AD thinks that bracing is also safe (or not safe) for the front seat passenger in a car with advanced airbags.
I also would like to know what the people who are against bracing think about the safety of the child in the carseat in case of bracing. For example if the front seat will be never used, is there any other reason to not brace the carseat? (which effects the safety of the kid negatively). Is there any other reason other than the manual prohibiting bracing? (I also agree that the manual is the primary source and should not be ignored)
I would like to know whether AD thinks that bracing is also safe (or not safe) for the front seat passenger in a car with advanced airbags.
I also would like to know what the people who are against bracing think about the safety of the child in the carseat in case of bracing. For example if the front seat will be never used, is there any other reason to not brace the carseat? (which effects the safety of the kid negatively). Is there any other reason other than the manual prohibiting bracing? (I also agree that the manual is the primary source and should not be ignored)
carseatcoach
Carseat Crankypants
If the install depends on bracing for stability, it is not really a good install because the front seat will move forward in a crash, thereby depriving the carseat of needed support.
Don´t you think it is odd, that you can brace a rearfacing car seat in Europe on a frontseat in a car with an advanced airbag like those in the USA. But in the USA you can´t
Since the front seat occupant is not attached to the front seat with a harness, the front seat passenger will move forward and AWAY from the front seat, just like you see happen to a child in a booster seat.
The crash and injury stats in Sweden are amazing and they do not lie.
REAL crash and injury data from in depth studies of car crashes in Sweden combined with research and crash testing are the key components in making and devolping these European rearfacing seats and their installation methods.
Lena
carseatcoach
Carseat Crankypants
Don´t you think it is odd, that you can brace a rearfacing car seat in Europe on a frontseat in a car with an advanced airbag like those in the USA. But in the USA you can´t
Yes, there are several of us who find it strange, and we're not willing to take uncorroborated testimony that it must be fine because they do it in Europe.
We have a misuse rate of over 90% here in the US. 90% of kids aren't dying in crashes, though. We can't conclude that misuse is okay because kids aren't dying. And I'm not willing to accept that bracing when specifically contraindicated is okay because people aren't dying from it in Sweden.
They don´t. There are only 2 seats in Europe that HAVE to be braced, as these don´t have a supportleg (footprop). I have one of these seats which is the Two Way Elite. You can get a solid install with this seat even without the front seat
Lena
LISmama810
Admin - CPS Technician
lenats31 said:Don´t you think it is odd, that you can brace a rearfacing car seat in Europe on a frontseat in a car with an advanced airbag like those in the USA. But in the USA you can´t
I don't necessarily find it strange at all.
Before answering that question I would need to know a lot more information about whether the advanced airbags and their sensors work the same way in both countries.
US airbag regulations change on a regular basis and require more innovation by the auto companies. In addition, there are other standards (non-government) that the companies try to meet in order to get better safety ratings. That means that they are constantly updating technologies. If those technologies are not needed in Europe, do they bother putting them in their cars there?
For example, one thing that US cars must include is a way for the airbag system to sense if there's a child or small adult sitting in the seat. If Swedes have the ability to turn off their airbags, is that technology necessary there?
And yes, I think there are two arguments here: Whether bracing is safe for the child, or whether bracing is safe for the front seat occupants.
I don't doubt that bracing is probably safe--or at worst non-harmful--for the child. I am not going to say with certainty that it won't affect the front seat passenger because the auto companies are telling us that it might.
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